Evidence for God from Science

Posted: **Sun Aug 06, 2006 4:58 pm**

The point is that when she was told in advance of God's design, she agreed and consented.

Yes, Mary was told in advance. Whether she agreed/consented, is debatable. It wasn't as if she could/would disagree or not consent.

I don't wish to be pedantic, but I think we Christians need to 'rightly divide the word of truth' and be sure that what we think and tell others has solid scriptural support.

"A wise man will listen and increase learning."

Posted: **Sun Aug 06, 2006 5:08 pm**

Kerux wrote:
The point is that when she was told in advance of God's design, she agreed and consented.
Yes, Mary was told in advance. Whether she agreed/consented, is debatable. It wasn't as if she could/would disagree or not consent.

I don't wish to be pedantic, but I think we Christians need to 'rightly divide the word of truth' and be sure that what we think and tell others has solid scriptural support.

"A wise man will listen and increase learning."

"Whether she agreed or consented is debatable?"

You don't see agreements and submission in her words? Whether it was needed is debatable, but not that did in fact consent or agree.

I agree we need to be careful to be scriptural and in context on these types of issues.

What is your scriptural support for your reasoning in terms of God's reasons above?

Posted: **Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:10 pm**

Because Mary conceiving Jesus was a done deal, long before she 'consented.'

31 Behold, you will conceive in your womb, and bring forth a son, and will call his name'Jesus.'

"You will conceive..."

Not "do you want to, do you agree to or do you consent?"

KJV is stronger:

Lu 1:31
And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

"Thou shalt....."And thou shalt call his name Jesus..."

NIV

1:31
You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus.

"You will be...."

All Mary said was, "let it be according to your word."

Little subtleties quite often make a big difference in Scripture.

Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:04 am**

Kerux wrote:Because Mary conceiving Jesus was a done deal, long before she 'consented.'

31 Behold, you will conceive in your womb, and bring forth a son, and will call his name'Jesus.'

"You will conceive..."

Not "do you want to, do you agree to or do you consent?"

KJV is stronger:

Lu 1:31
And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

"Thou shalt....."And thou shalt call his name Jesus..."

NIV

1:31
You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus.

"You will be...."

All Mary said was, "let it be according to your word."

Little subtleties quite often make a big difference in Scripture.

Yes it was planned.

Mary did agree as is plainly indicated in all the passages.

God's plan was not necessarily contingent upon that agreement, yet He did send His messenger before the conception and Mary acknowleged and indicated her agreement and submission to the plan.

Little subteties do indeed often make a big difference in Scripture. I think you're perhaps missing this one which is clear within the text itself.

If God had no concern for Mary's awareness or consent, then He might not have bothered to communicate to her in advance in this manner. However, He did. God does not reveal all his thinking in this manner and so there is some speculation, on both of our parts in this regard. It is clear however that God chose to reveal His plan to Mary in advance, and Mary submitted willingly. That becomes clearer in later passages as well.

God also had concern for Mary in terms of her relationship with Joseph and so He further sent a messenger to Joseph so he would know the unique characteristics of this pregnancy and not put Mary away as would have been permissable and customary.

You propose that God did this in order to provide Jesus with a human father and stable family. I think that is reasonable. It is not directly revealed however in any of the passages.

I think it is equally reasonable and better established within the text that God also did this for Mary's benefit to spare her further pain.

Those two concepts are not mutually exclusive. Both, I believe are reasonable given our knowledge of the nature of God. They both however, involve inference from the text where it is not clearly stated.

We do that. I believe it is legitimate to seek to understand things in that manner. We do have to be careful, however that we recognize that which is direct and that which is inferred and not confuse the two.

Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:25 pm**

Canuckster1127 wrote:

Mary did agree as is plainly indicated in all the passages.

God's plan was not necessarily contingent upon that agreement, yet He did send His messenger before the conception and Mary acknowleged and indicated her agreement and submission to the plan.

Little subteties do indeed often make a big difference in Scripture. I think you're perhaps missing this one which is clear within the text itself.

If God had no concern for Mary's awareness or consent, then He might not have bothered to communicate to her in advance in this manner.

Sorry, but Mary's 'agreement' is not plainly indicated in all the passages. And turning something into a manta does not make it a fact.

Yes, God did send an angel before the conception. And again, repeating something doesn't make it become true. What Mary did say was, 'let it be to me according to your will." You read what Mary said as agreement and consent. And now you've added a word that you didn't use in your last post - submission. A subtle difference, which is what I mentioned last post.

Submission is not the same as consent or agreement.

You interpret God indicating to Mary before the fact that she was going to to conceive a child as doing so because He was concerned about getting her agreement/consent in advance.

That is not necessarily the reason, and is not stated in the text. What is reasonable to expect in the situation where an engaged women is about to get pregnant in a totally unprecendented manner - a virgin getting pregnant - with the Savior of the world - to be informed as to what was about to take place. Also, Joseph had a need to know.

I'm not going to be labor these points, but you seem to be fairly set upon your views, and that is an unwise not to mention dangerous position to take when studying Scripture and trying to understand the mind and will of God.

"Knowledge puffeth up, but love edifies."

Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:03 pm**

Kerux - just flat out question: do you actually believed that God sinned?

Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:17 pm**

Flat out answer: No.

What I have stated plainly is that some non-Christians have asked me this question and I have answered their question but want to know how others would answer the same question.

Relax Jac. I'm not attacking. We're not playing King of the Bible Hill here.

I'm only asking questions. Don't be defensive.

Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:48 pm**

I didn't mean to come across defensive. I was asking a flat out question. I've not followed this discussion in detail. If you've already said that you don't think God sinned, then that is a wonderful thing, but even as I skim the thread now, it isn't explicitly stated. Now it's out in the open and clearly emphasized. You can see the motivation for the question, though, as you've certainly been playing devil's advocate for the idea that God did sin.

No hard feelings.

Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:59 pm**

Kerux wrote:
Canuckster1127 wrote:

Mary did agree as is plainly indicated in all the passages.

God's plan was not necessarily contingent upon that agreement, yet He did send His messenger before the conception and Mary acknowleged and indicated her agreement and submission to the plan.

Little subteties do indeed often make a big difference in Scripture. I think you're perhaps missing this one which is clear within the text itself.

If God had no concern for Mary's awareness or consent, then He might not have bothered to communicate to her in advance in this manner.
Sorry, but Mary's 'agreement' is not plainly indicated in all the passages. And turning something into a manta does not make it a fact.

Yes, God did send an angel before the conception. And again, repeating something doesn't make it become true. What Mary did say was, 'let it be to me according to your will." You read what Mary said as agreement and consent. And now you've added a word that you didn't use in your last post - submission. A subtle difference, which is what I mentioned last post.

Submission is not the same as consent or agreement.

You interpret God indicating to Mary before the fact that she was going to to conceive a child as doing so because He was concerned about getting her agreement/consent in advance.

That is not necessarily the reason, and is not stated in the text. What is reasonable to expect in the situation where an engaged women is about to get pregnant in a totally unprecendented manner - a virgin getting pregnant - with the Savior of the world - to be informed as to what was about to take place. Also, Joseph had a need to know.

I'm not going to be labor these points, but you seem to be fairly set upon your views, and that is an unwise not to mention dangerous position to take when studying Scripture and trying to understand the mind and will of God.

"Knowledge puffeth up, but love edifies."

Kerux,

You indicated your answer above.

Show me where your answer is directly from the text and demonstrate your explanation to the same standard please.

Please be humble while doing it.

Bart

Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:46 pm**

I can't add anymore than I than I have w/o going over a lifetime of accumulated knowledge of Scripture and try to reduce it to the length of a post.

And I'm sorry if my approach seems to need to be more humble. I'm only asking these questions in the way that I am, ie as devil's advocate, because they are being asked of me in this way.

As I newbie here, I do detect of sense of 'know it allism' among a few of the posters. I try hard to not fall into that, because over the last 30 years I have changed my view of my interpretation of much of what I thought I knew many times when God has shown me through my independent study and when others have led me to see things in a different light.

"A wise man will listen......"

Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:52 pm**

Kerux wrote:I can't add anymore than I than I have w/o going over a lifetime of accumulated knowledge of Scripture and try to reduce it to the length of a post.

And I'm sorry if my approach seems to need to be more humble. I'm only asking these questions in the way that I am, ie as devil's advocate, because they are being asked of me in this way.

As I newbie here, I do detect of sense of 'know it allism' among a few of the posters. I try hard to not fall into that, because over the last 30 years I have changed my view of my interpretation of much of what I thought I knew many times when God has shown me through my independent study and when others have led me to see things in a different light.

"A wise man will listen......"

Kerux,

You don't pick up on irony all that well.

On the one hand, you state that your knowledge of 30 years is so great that you can't condense it to a post. Yet you ask the question and make assessments of others.

You're certainly welcome to post here.

You might try getting to know others and letting others get to know you before you attempt the suffering sage who is above it all routine.

It's up to you of course.

Bart

Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:56 pm**

God is all powerful, he has the power to create us and to destroy us, asking if God sinned is asking if God was playing God.

Posted: **Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:07 pm**

Canuckster1127 wrote:You might try getting to know others and letting others get to know you before you attempt the suffering sage who is above it all routine. It's up to you of course. Bart

That's the perfect example of judging another. 'Suffering sage." '
"Above it all routine." That is not what I meant and I certainly didn't imply that.

How anyone could take what I wrote, to wit:

As I newbie here, I do detect of sense of 'know it allism' among a few of the posters. I try hard to not fall into that, because over the last 30 years I have changed my view of my interpretation of much of what I thought I knew many times when God has shown me through my independent study and when others have led me to see things in a different light.

to being a suffering sage and above it all is beyond me. I said I have changed my understanding of Scripture many times, and am open to doing the same now. But you won't change my understanding by name calling - or judging - and you won't convince others of the love of God with that approach either.

I didn't expect the name calling to start so soon.

It appears to me that some here think that all that is needed to understand a passage of Scripture is to go to the orginal Greek/Hebrew dictionary or by having studied the languages themselves, look up the words in the passage, determine their meaning, the grammar used, etc, find out how many times the word has or has not been used and "presto" out pops the correct meaning. And once the study is done, it can be canned away for future reference by any and all. And when a pastor is rushed for a mesage topic, pull the pre-canned conclusion off the shelf and Bingo, instant noodle message.

I don't see it that way.

Many times what isn't written is important, who wrote what was written, why it was wrtten, who it was written to, when it was written, how what was written relates to other passages etc, all combine to give meaning to God's Word.

Maybe that is the way some of you who are responding to my approach actually think. Maybe we agree and this is all a misunderstanding. And if it is, there is certainly no need for what was just written. For you to be judging me already as a 'suferring sage' and 'above it all' is a bit over the top, at least for me.

Seems to me I have stepped on some sacred toes.

Posted: **Tue Aug 08, 2006 5:57 am**

Kerux,

Apparently toes have been stepped upon. Perhaps two sets.

As a newcomer to the board you may want to go back and read your posts in terms of the tone and at points, pretty open condescension that several, not just one, have picked up on.

It might help as well to see the use of emoticons that were used to communicate the lightness of the comments.

Nevertheless, it appears that we have gotten off upon the wrong foot.

Let us start over.

My name is Bart. I am a moderator on this board. I pastored and worked with 3 different denominations over the past 20 year in the roles of Assistant Pastor, Senior Pastor, Elder, Board Chairman, Financial Administrator, Church Administrator and a denominational District Business Manager. I currently am on hiatus working as a Government Contractor consulting for the Dept of Homeland Security while I complete a Masters Degree in Organizational Leadership.

You may want to check our introductions threads to get to know others participating here. Further, it might be helpful for you to post there and let us know you a little bit. That always helps in my estimation to break the ice and open the conversation.

Welcome to our board. We are sincerely glad you are here and hope that you will find this board to be a place where you can both learn from others as well as challenge us with your learning and wisdom in the Christian Walk.

Here is a copy of our board Discussion Guidelines which we attempt to hold in our conversations.

Discussion Guidelines

These discussion guidelines have been developed to outline the purpose of this board and expected conduct of those who participate. Administrators and moderators are responsible for enforcing the rules, and can moderate at their discretion to ensure that the desired spirit at these boards is maintained. Such moderation may include messages being edited or removed with or without warning, and/or posters being suspended or banned.

Board Purpose (Please Read - Important!)
This board is a part of Evidence for God from Science (G&S), a Christian website, which serves to provide a defense and persuasive case for Christianity as well as encouragement and instruction for Christian people. Therefore, this message board is intended to reflect that spirit--serving as a place where sincere seekers can ask questions, and where faithful Christians can receive encouragement and instruction. This board is not for those who have already decisively made up their mind that Christ is "not" for them; who merely wish to debate and argue against Christianity, ignoring any and all reasons presented. Therefore, those who are Christian or haven't made up their minds are encouraged to join, while others who merely wish to attack and try to discredit Christianity are discouraged.

Language
The God and Science website is rated "family friendly" and for "all ages", so please keep your words clean. Some words considered inappropriate have been blocked, and attempts to get around a blocked word by inserting a space or character will not be tolerated.

Mannerism
Within discussions, please be civil and courteous and do not resort to personal attacks. If you feel inappropriately attacked, please bring such cases privately to a moderator who can then intervene as necessary. While these instructions are likely unnecessary for the vast majority of participants, here is some biblical advice to help serve as a guide for conversations:
Write in a manner that you would want others to write to you - "in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you" (Matthew 7:12).
"But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth." (Colossians 3:8)
"Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned, as it were, with salt, so that you may know how you should respond to each person." (Colossians 4:6)
"In all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified, sound in speech which is beyond reproach, in order that the opponent may be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us." (Titus 2:7-8)
Constructive Discussions
To have a constructive discussion, there are at least four main requirements:

At Least Two People: This point should be obvious.

A Specific Topic: All conversations should have one specific topic, and as such should remain on that topic. Any new topic that forks out and is too far removed, should be started as a new thread or brought to a moderator's attention.

Knowledge: It is not expected that you should be thoroughly educated on an issue before commenting about it. At the same token, it is impossible for us to know everything. So if a topic is new to you or you don't know much about it, then it is good to spend some time researching to increase your knowledge before writing.

Self-control: Chances are you will disagree with someone, and it is at this point discussions can turn nasty. Please remember to be respectful to others and keep to the topic rather than resorting to personal attacks.

Plagiarism, References, and Misquoting
Plagiarism is not accepted here. Any information gotten from another source must be referenced in some way. In most cases, all that is expected is a single link along with who you quoted. All Bible quotes must also be cited.

The trustworthiness of sources and quality of references should also be determined, otherwise you might end up embarrassed. There are many ideas floating around on the Web, and the quality can generally be judged by where it came from. For example, you should be wary of sources that are predominately "opinionative", don't appear "educated" on the issue, or lack "professionalism". In addition, refrain from continually using references that have already been outrightly shown as false.

Misquoting is also frowned upon and will be cause for intervention by a moderator. It is best to quote an entire sentence, even paragraph if possible. However, quoting a few middle words where the authors intention clearly does not support your case is dishonest so will not be accepted.

Spam
Spam will not be accepted. By "spam" we mean links advertising a website, posts that only contain links, quoted articles, or massive amounts of text uninspiring to discussions. Such posts will be moved into the "Garbage Bin" or deleted by a moderator at their discretion. If one can't spend the time discussing such links or articles, then others shouldn't be expected to bother either.

Moderating
A moderator reserves the right to deal with any post they deem inappropriate, including for reasons not specifically mentioned here. If you feel unjustly dealt with, please contact the moderator in question directly and privately. If you have any questions on issues not covered here, please contact a moderator for advice. Comments regarding these rules of conduct are also welcome as long as they are constructive.

I could go back through your posts and demonstrate where to me and others, the terseness, tone and dismissiveness has given rise to the impressions taken. You've already indicate your frustration.

Let's let it drop and begin over. Sometimes first impressions both ways can be unfair and wrongly perceived.

So, welcome and let's start again, shall we?

Regards,

Bart

Posted: **Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:31 am**

My name is Bart. I am a moderator on this board. I pastored and worked with 3 different denominations over the past 20 year in the roles of Assistant Pastor, Senior Pastor, Elder, Board Chairman, Financial Administrator, Church Administrator and a denominational District Business Manager. I currently am on hiatus working as a Government Contractor consulting for the Dept of Homeland Security while I complete a Masters Degree in Organizational Leadership.

So? Does God care about all this?

Evidence for God from Science

Did God Sin by Getting Mary Pregnant?