Evidence for God from Science

I only use the KJV. I really don't trust the others.

Ok the point i was trying to make is have you ever seen satan do more then tempt anyone? Knowhere in the bible can i find Satan giving someone powers beyond the great strength that the possessed have.

My main problem with this is that your using Jesus who was God as an example of psychic abilities when God is all powerful. God being able to do all of these things has nothing to do with whether we can or not. Most of Jesus's miracles don't break the laws of physics, but so what who said any of them had too? Can you provide proof that breaking the laws of physics would cause a cataclysm. Also God will break the laws of physics after the resurrection when christians are to be given new and everlasting bodies.

When you die your soul goes to sleep and your body decomposes, so clearly anyone who claims they can speak with the dead is running a scam or is being tricked by a demonic spirit.

Why does the Bible warn us against this stuff because obviously your easy prey to Satan and his legions when you are attempting this stuff so thats why. Anyone who wants to talk or interact with the dead is clearly not searching for God.

vvart wrote:Ok the point i was trying to make is have you ever seen satan do more then tempt anyone? Knowhere in the bible can i find Satan giving someone powers beyond the great strength that the possessed have.

Some of the possessed people were quite dangerous actually, as the devils in them greatly increased their strength. I'll get back to you on this, as I'm not sure if the story I am recalling at this moment is from the Bible or from some other source.

"My main problem with this is that your using Jesus who was God as an example of psychic abilities when God is all powerful. God being able to do all of these things has nothing to do with whether we can or not. Most of Jesus's miracles don't break the laws of physics, but so what who said any of them had too? Can you provide proof that breaking the laws of physics would cause a cataclysm. Also God will break the laws of physics after the resurrection when christians are to be given new and everlasting bodies."[/quote]

Based on revelations, God will reshape this universe, which implies a change of the laws. The ressurection has no bearing on the laws of the current universe. In fact, if I recall correctly, we get a new earth. It might not even be this one reshaped. This has no bearing on the current laws. As for providing proof that they will cause a cataclysm, I can't because I can't break them. They're called LAWS for a reason. GOd has the power to do pretty much anything. There are examples in the Bible where He uses inferior powers(transmutation) as opposed to superior ones(spontaneous generation). Since God is smarter than me, I assume that if He chose to use an inferior power, it means the superior power had a disatvantage that outweighed the inferior one. I never said I know for a fact

When you die your soul goes to sleep and your body decomposes, so clearly anyone who claims they can speak with the dead is running a scam or is being tricked by a demonic spirit.

Your soul goes to sleep? I was under the impression that it goes to either heaven or hell...
And if that was the case, God would mention demons. The reason I understand that God forbids speaking with the dead is because
A) They are not God, so we should not be seeking their advice before our Lord's
B) They are unaware of what is happening in our world, so they wouldn't know anything usefun anyway.
Nowhere does it mention that it is forbidden because Satan might be pretending to be them.

Why does the Bible warn us against this stuff because obviously your easy prey to Satan and his legions when you are attempting this stuff so thats why. Anyone who wants to talk or interact with the dead is clearly not searching for God.

You're no more of an easier pray to have a spirit tell you to murder somebody then you are to have a living person tell you the same thing. It is still your choice, and you(should) still have common sense. If somebody told me to kill my mother, I wouldn't do it, whether it was a drunk, the president, or the Grim Reaper telling me to do it.

No your right, possessed people did have huge strength but to my knowledge thats all they could do.

Well your right about New Creation, but I'm not aware that we are told exactly when transformation of the christians will occur. So yeah i guess its not a good example of God breaking our laws as thats unknown area right now. However claiming God never breaks the laws doesn't mean he can't do so without their being a cataclysm and more importantly it holds no bearing on whether people have psychic abilities.

I believe in soul-sleep, for example when Jesus goes to the Rabbi's house to see the girl and everyone say's she is dead, Jesus says that she is only sleeping.

Also you are much more susceptible to believing what a spirit tells you rather then a person as you can mistake the spirit for being God (A voice in your head). Also my belief is that Demonic spirits and Satan use trickery rather then blurting things that one can easily see through. Again I would imagine the Bible would warn us against this stuff for the reason that it will lead us away from God and im inclined to believe that spirits are in someway doing the leading.

"No your right, possessed people did have huge strength but to my knowledge thats all they could do."

And sadly, that is all we will ever know. Atheism is now Satan's tool, and he's been very successful with it.

"Well your right about New Creation, but I'm not aware that we are told exactly when transformation of the christians will occur. So yeah i guess its not a good example of God breaking our laws as thats unknown area right now. However claiming God never breaks the laws doesn't mean he can't do so without their being a cataclysm and more importantly it holds no bearing on whether people have psychic abilities."

I agree that it doesn't mean it will be a cataclysm, but I do believe it would not be a good idea. As for whether it has bearing or not, I have listed my reasons. Since I can't prove my point due to lack of resources, all we can do is disagree.

"I believe in soul-sleep, for example when Jesus goes to the Rabbi's house to see the girl and everyone say's she is dead, Jesus says that she is only sleeping."

I think it was a metaphor. As in, she isn't dead because she will soon wake up. Or she could simply have been in clinic death, and Jesus being God would have known.

"Also you are much more susceptible to believing what a spirit tells you rather then a person as you can mistake the spirit for being God (A voice in your head). Also my belief is that Demonic spirits and Satan use trickery rather then blurting things that one can easily see through. Again I would imagine the Bible would warn us against this stuff for the reason that it will lead us away from God and im inclined to believe that spirits are in someway doing the leading."

The problem is, when you seek out a spirit's advice, you know exactly which spirit you seek. If you're not seeking Christ, you will not find Christ(you will likely find the devil instead). It all makes sense when you think about it.

Well i believe heaven isn't open to us upon that. Jesus said the Kingdom of God is near. This should imply that when we die we don't go to Heaven/Hell because that sort of negates the resurrection.

Actually if your seeking the advice of a Demon then yeah you will probably feel its presence as we feel God. However, I was speaking more about people who seek to speak with a dead loved one and without knowing it find themselves communicating with a Demon, who in a subtle manner would slowly turn that individual against God by getting them to believe wierd things, this may not apply to christians as much but that doesn't take away its danger.

Well, there's danger in everything. I don't see spirits as being more so than any other influence Satan can come up with.

Mastermind wrote:The problem is, when you seek out a spirit's advice, you know exactly which spirit you seek. If you're not seeking Christ, you will not find Christ(you will likely find the devil instead). It all makes sense when you think about it.

You may seek out a certain spirit, but that does not mean the spirit you seek will be what you receive. From Scripture I've read, God appears against spiritism in general, as such can lead to deception, and turning away from God. Now deception means you would believe the spirit you are seeking is the one you actually receive, or that you are truely gaining valuable knowledge through paranormal means. Do you really believe Satan is so easy to spot, that you could detect whether he is masquerading as light (2 Corinthians 11:14)? You might see much truth to whatever you receive, but Satan didn't even have to lie to Adam and Eve in the garden to deceive them. To be able to tell the truth, and still deceive, reveals a mastery of deception. To offer opportunities to be deceived, is just asking for trouble and seems like something foolish to me.

Kurieuo.

Hence the "(you will likely find the devil instead)" part.
Again, I discourage attempting to speak to the dead, but I don't see the fool that seeks advice from them as being any worse than the one who seeks the advice of a stranger.

Mastermind wrote:Hence the "(you will likely find the devil instead)" part.

Sorry, can you clarify your position. In what way do you think you can seek Christ through paranormal means, or did I miss the ball altogether?

Mastermind wrote:but I don't see the fool that seeks advice from them as being any worse than the one who seeks the advice of a stranger.

Aren't both usually related? As one of your voting options highlight, people are lead to believe that only "a select few individuals" have such gifts. Therefore, they not only seek out the advice of a stranger, but the advice of some sort of spiritual or paranormal activity through a strange. The latter seems clearly much worse in my opinion.

Kurieuo.

Kurieuo wrote:

Mastermind wrote:but I don't see the fool that seeks advice from them as being any worse than the one who seeks the advice of a stranger.

Aren't both usually related? As one of your voting options highlight, people are lead to believe that only "a select few individuals" have such gifts. Therefore, they not only seek out the advice of a stranger, but the advice of some sort of spiritual or paranormal activity through a strange. The latter seems clearly much worse in my opinion.

Kurieuo.

Err, I don't think they're worse. If both lead to your downfall, what difference does it make how it was done?

Not sure if you caught it, but I added an extra part to my previous reply.

Kurieuo.

"Sorry, can you clarify your position. In what way do you think you can seek Christ through paranormal means, or did I miss the ball altogether? "

Prayer my friend. I consider prayer a form of magic(invocation), and pretty paranormal as far as secular scientists are concerned. I might be a bit confusing as a lot of my meanings are a bit different than the way they are usually used.

Uh yeah, basically prayer is not magic, especially not invocation at all. Essentially God is the one doing the invoking, your just asking him to do so, of which he can say no to your request. Prayer is just someone talking with God, how's that magic, I may not be asking him for anything.

vvart wrote:Uh yeah, basically prayer is not magic, especially not invocation at all. Essentially God is the one doing the invoking, your just asking him to do so, of which he can say no to your request. Prayer is just someone talking with God, how's that magic, I may not be asking him for anything.

May I remind you that this is MY PERSONAL DEFINITION of magic, and as such, any argument you may have in regard to semantics is void?