Evidence for God from Science

roverdisc1 wrote:

Not necesarily. God's will will always be done, but the real contradiction is a loving God offering salvation to someone who can't accept it.

You seem to still be making my point for me. If god's will will always be done....I have no choice in the outcome.....hence, no free will. If what you say is true, why would god even offer the salvation if he knows the person won't accept it? By offering to that sort of person, questions his omniscience. Why offer if he knows it won't be accepted (kind of a waste of time).

Exactly. Why invite people to believe, receive, trust, come, etc. if the results are locked up? This implies election against a persons will and damnation to those who never had a choice. I ask you, since you seem to lean towards calvinism (of which I'm not completely closed to) how this is loving? Yes, it's loving to the elect, but not to the non elect. Is God a respecter of persons? I'm still clinging to the hope that God is big enough to be both sovereign and allow free will. I see evidence of both in the bible. No matter which view we take we'll see problems or troubling issues with the other. That's why Jesus needs to be our center, our all in all, and Lord of our life...everything else are minor technicalities.

FFC wrote:

roverdisc1 wrote:If I have been on the fence this long it will take much more than a puff of air to blow me either way.

FFC Wrote "An omniscient + omnipotent God can direct and redirect the decisions that we make with our free will". I wonder if FFC is trying to make my point for me?

One thing is for sure, whatever side of the fence I will fall, will certainly depend on a concise lack of contradictions. If god can direct and redirect my decisions, then I have no free will.

Not necesarily. God's will will always be done, but the real contradiction is a loving God offering salvation to someone who can't accept it.

How about, 'a loving God accomplishing salvation for His sheep on the Cross'?

It takes an act of faith to be saved, and we need to know how we may be saved. Hence God's calls to faith. He has chosen to save the world 'by the foolishness of preaching'... However, in the Calvinist view, God works in man 'both to will and to work'; if He would not do so, no one would come to Him.

roverdisc -- Do you know that GC Berkouwer, whose article I linked in the top post, answers your question? In the Bible, 'free will' doesn't mean 'a complete (libertarian) freedom to choose'; it means 'a will brought into submission to God'. Only then our wills are really free.
If you want a good essay (shorter than Berkouwer's and easier to understand) on free will, see Freedom of the will by RC Sproul.

FFC wrote:This implies election against a persons will and damnation to those who never had a choice.

No one who really wished salvation and turned to Jesus was ever turned away. 'Election against a person's will' is true, but it is against the (original) wills of the elect. The non-elect do not even wish to accept God's offer.
Moreover, the Bible makes clear that he who seeks, finds. And there is anecdotal evidence of people who had visions of Jesus without ever having heard of Him; they submitted to Jesus, and were saved. We have no way of knowing how often this special kind of revelation occurs.

Turgy wrote:No one who really wished salvation and turned to Jesus was ever turned away. 'Election against a person's will' is true, but it is against the (original) wills of the elect. The non-elect do not even wish to accept God's offer.

Does God love everybody or just the elect?

Everybody -- but he has a special love for His elect.

I once read it posed, not that I believe it, that if we do have free will that it was possible that God, even though he is omniscient, wouldn't be able to know which choice we would make in any given situation before we actually made the choice. However this would make sense of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, God repenting of things, His anger etc, and still keep all His Holy attributes intact.

What do you think?