Evidence for God from Science

Posted: **Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:04 pm**

Postmillenialists believe when the 'perfect Kingdom is created by Church then Christ will return.

Some Shia Muslim sects believe when the Mulsim Kingdom is 'perfected' the 12th Iman will reappear and convert all to Islam.

Posted: **Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:09 am**

FFC wrote:
John wrote:Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

Is this a literal earthly thousand year reign of Christ or spiritual symbolism?

Don't get heavenly time mixed up with earthly time. And its not "spiritual symbolism" .

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

One of GOD's days is 1000 of earthly man's years. So the "millennium period" in Rev 20 is also called the Lord's Day.

At the 7th trumpet at CHRIST'S return, people are no longer in "fleshly bodies but Spiritual bodies" 1 Cor 15:52.

On that first day of the Millennium, both the beast and the false prophet are destroyed. The beast is in two parts, the one world political system/government (Rev 13) that gives way to Satan's one world religious system. These systems of support will not be brought back to support Satan at the end of the millennium. [See Revelation 19:20 where both of these are destroyed.]

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
"he" the Angel, it's Michael and his angels that control Satan.

Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Isa 14:13-16
"that he should deceive the nations no more"
When this time of the great deception is on earth, it will be during the five month period(locust time) of Revelation 9:5,10, and the Antichrist will then deceived all nations and all peoples of the earth except the elect.

When the millennium is over, Satan will be released to try to deceive/test the people again, and many will follow him just as they did in this earthly flesh age. But this time he will not have his government system.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Martyrs down throught the ages, those who for the witness of Jesus, this includes the two witnesses of Rev 11.

The second group are those in this final generation who had the seal of GOD in their foreheads and were "overcomers."
"and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years".

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
If you are not part of the 1st resurrection then you are part of the remainder who are called the dead(spiritually) who must wait until the end of the Millennium where you will be tested that "short season" by Satan. They are called "the dead" because because they are still subject to the second death, which is death of a soul in the lake of fire vs 14.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Two deaths, 1st is death of the fleshly body, 2nd is death of the soul in the Lake of Fire by the Consuming Fire Heb 12:29.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
That's perish in the Lake of Fire, second death, death of the soul, turned to ashes, blotted out, gone.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
If you are a overcomer of Satan and his beast system then you have a immortal soul and the second death doesn't apply to you.
"shall reign with him a thousand years", Eze 44:23-24.

We are in the millennium there are no flesh people at this time, all have been changed. The first death (flesh) and the first resurrection is over. So the dead(those alive in their spiritual bodies) in the Millennium means those
who are "spiritually dead", have mortal souls have to be tested.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
At the end of the millennium after everyone has been taught the difference between "holy and profane", and cause them to discern between the "unclean and the clean.' Then they will be tested.

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
This is at the end of the millennium and this GO=og and Magag is not to be confused with the Gog and Magog in Ezekiel 38. Here it means in all directions. East and West, from Jerusalem to all the earth.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
'beloved city,' Jerusalem, when Satan has gathered all who will follow him, they will be consumed by the Fire of GOD.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Dante's Inferno, where poor souls who didn't repent weep and wail in pain and agony and torment forever and ever. Does that sound like heaven?

"shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever" is a figure of speech that is to be blotted out, turned to ashes, gone.
We are shown what it will be like to be blotted out with Satan when he finally goes into the lake.

Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Does this mean he will burn forever? NO, in Jer 32:35, that GOD never ever though of torturing children in fire. Such is the doctrine of Molech.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Great white throne judgement, some will get rewards for its payday!

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Do dead people stand? No, this is the "Spiritually dead" with mortal souls.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works .
"sea gave up the dead ", the sea of people Rev 17:15
"and death and hell delivered up the dead", every person who is "spiritually dead" is brought forth for judgement. These are the mortal souls that follow Satan.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Second death, death of the soul. All the wicked people will be gone forever.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

1Cr 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

If your in the Book of life, then death has no victory.

Posted: **Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:00 pm**

I have a question here, 7. You said that one of God's days is equal to 1000 of man's days. Was this a misquote? It should actually be one of God's days is equal to 1000 of man's YEARS. Also, you said that the "Lord's Day" was the millenium period in Revelations. Actually the Lord's Day is the Day of His Wrath, also known as the Day of the Lord. Mal. 4:5, Acts 2:20

Posted: **Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:00 am**

jenna wrote:I have a question here, 7. You said that one of God's days is equal to 1000 of man's days. Was this a misquote? It should actually be one of God's days is equal to 1000 of man's YEARS. Also, you said that the "Lord's Day" was the millenium period in Revelations. Actually the Lord's Day is the Day of His Wrath, also known as the Day of the Lord. Mal. 4:5, Acts 2:20

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
1 of GOD's Days/1000 mans years right.

Actually the Lord's Day is the Day of His Wrath,

Wrath is such a broad subject, written all threw the bible. Here's a few places.
We don't have 1000 years of "Wrath" for when does HE pour out the Wrath? The Lords Day will be a time of discipline.

Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

GOD's Wrath gets poured out when "Satan and his fallen angels" are standing in front of flesh men. It starts in end of the 6th trumpet, 6th vial and continues threw the 7th.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
metaphor

Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
When does this happen? At the seventh trumpet.

Isa 13:12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
GODs WORD is as fine gold.

Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, [and] so great.

Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
We don't have 1000 years of Wrath, for it will be a time of teaching in the millennium. (Eze 44:23-24.)

Jesus Christ will be with us here on earth in His kingdom then. There will be teaching and discipline, and many people saved in this Millennium period. Most of the people saved today will not be reigning with Christ in the Millennium, because they will throw their inheritance away very soon, when they choose to go chasing after the Antichrist at the 6th trumpet, 6th seal, and 6th vial.

Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Posted: **Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:03 am**

Again, since the verse says "a thousand YEARS as one day", I'm not sure where you are getting 1000 DAYS as one day.

Posted: **Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:30 am**

jenna wrote:Again, since the verse says "a thousand YEARS as one day", I'm not sure where you are getting 1000 DAYS as one day.

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

We will spend "one" of the Lords days with HIM , which is 1000/Millennium of our years earthly time. Which is before the "new earth age" called the eternity comes in Rev 21-22.

Posted: **Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:33 am**

7trumpets wrote:
jenna wrote:Again, since the verse says "a thousand YEARS as one day", I'm not sure where you are getting 1000 DAYS as one day.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

We will spend "one" of the Lords days with HIM , which is 1000/Millennium of our years earthly time. Which is before the "new earth age" called the eternity comes in Rev 21-22.

Right, a thousand YEARS is to one day, not 1000 DAYS to one day.

Posted: **Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:02 am**

I've always looked at it like:
4 days (4000 years) - Old Testament/Prophetic Dispensation
2 days (2000 years) - Church Dispensation
1 day (1000 years) - Mellinium Reign

Much like the 7 days in creation....which may or may not each be a 24 hour period....depending on how people read it.

Personally, I would just as soon not be stuck on earth another 1000 years....but I guess with Jesus here all will be well.

Posted: **Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:44 pm**

Rev. 20:5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)

This one to me is that the unbelievers came to life again. Which is the Second Resurrection.
The reason being is that there is the second death which is eternal also.

Posted: **Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:53 pm**

We are in the millennium there are no flesh people at this time, all have been changed. The first death (flesh) and the first resurrection is over. So the dead(those alive in their spiritual bodies) in the Millennium means those
who are "spiritually dead", have mortal souls have to be tested.

If there are no flesh people during millennium, who is going to give birth at that time?

Posted: **Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:28 am**

Obnviously a thousand years means a thousand years exactly precisely, as one thousand year periods have been the modus operandi of the Lord from the beginning. This is why exact precise years were given from one forefather to the birth of the next, exact and prercisely. And yet people want to change these exact words and numbers because of their lack of knowledge. repetition is the law of memory and a way the Lord confirms His words and numbers. 1000 equals 1000. A year equals a year.

This is not rocket science brethren but exactness repeated over and over again, so no one can excuse themselves from understanding.

4 004 B.C. to 1004 B.C the mid point was the opening of the Temple by Solomon and obvious mid point. 4 BC a obvious 2/3 point as the Lord was born in the flesh.

And on and on it goes til the exact and precise Millinium after six thousand exact and precise thousand year periods.

Let me show you the graphic timeline if I can learn to repost one onto this board. Give me a few seconds or minutes

Posted: **Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:02 pm**

I personally believe it to be literal, though I am not dogmatic on this.

Prior to and during the Millennial Reign, Christ's enemies have not all been dealt with for good, that is, cast away into the lake of fire for all time. 1 Corinthians 15:25

As for the 1000 years as 1 day, and 1 day as 1000 years... I think what Peter meant was that 1 Earth day is no more or less important than 1000 Earth years in God's eternal scale of things. I believe that Heaven time corresponds to Earth time also. Revelation 8:1

Also, not everything in the Book of Revelation is in chronological order. Events such as the birth of the Child (Rev. 12:5) and the war in Heaven (Rev. 12:7-8) have already happened (at least I believe so), whereas the coming of the Antichrist (Rev. 13:1, 2) and the Battle of Armageddon (Rev. 19:11-21) have yet to take place.

Posted: **Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:08 pm**

Erm, isn't a thousand year empire exactly what a 20th century dictator promised his country? That didn't exactly manage that long did it...

Personally i think ive stepped into the wrong thread, but hey dont mind me. So we gotta wait for the year 3000 ah well ill try and wait that long.

Posted: **Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:43 pm**

I'll stick with the Pre-mill.

As far as Gentry and the postmellinnial/preterist stuff, there is far too much historical problems. Not to mention Biblical.

Here is my research on the early church - anti-preterist

Only with a possible exception of Clement, no one in the first 400 years of church history had a clue that the Book of Revelation had been written during Nero's reign. Nor did anyone see the fall of Jerusalem as a fulfillment of this book. Everyone saw the tribulation and the coming anti-Christ as future.

John was exiled on Patmos under Domitian (8)
Irenaeus (115-202) — Against Heresies, bk. V, Ch. 30
Hegesippus (~150) — Church History, bk. III, ch. 17-18
Apocryphal (150-200) — Acts of John
Hippolytus (170-236) — On the End of the World, 49; On Christ and Antichrist, 36
Victorinus (?-303) — Commentary on the Apocalypse, ch. 10 and 17
Eusebius (265-340) — Church History, bk. III, ch. 17-18 and 23; bk. V, ch. 8
Jerome (342-420) — Against Jovinianus, bk. I, 26; De Viris Illustribus (On Illustrious Men), ch. 9
Sulpitius Severus (363-420) — Sacred History, bk. II, ch. 31

John's exile with questions left
Clement of Alexandria (150-220) — (Tyrant - Domitian??) Who is the Rich Man That Shall Be Saved?, XLII (see Eusebius, Church History, bk. III, ch. 23), but also see Stormata or Miscellanies, bk. VII, ch. XVII and bk.

He does indicate in “Who is the Rich Man That Shall Be Saved?” that Christ's visible return is future:

“Let one believe these things, and the disciples of God, and God, who is surety, the Prophecies, the Gospels, the Apostolic words; living in accordance with them, and lending his ears, and practicing the deeds, he shall at his decease see the end and demonstration of the truths taught. FOR HE WHO IN THIS WORLD WELCOMES THE ANGEL OF PENITENCE will not repent at the time that he leaves the body, NOR BE ASHAMED WHEN HE SEES THE SAVIOUR APPROACHING IN HIS GLORY AND WITH HIS ARMY. He fears not the fire.”

Tertullian (160-225) — The Prescription against Heretics, ch. 36

Antichrist and/or the Tribulation are Future (18)
Justin Martyr (100-165) — Dialogue with Trypho, ch. 110
Irenaeus (115-202) — Against Heresies, bk. V, Ch. 25, 28 and 30
Hermas (~160) — The Pastor or The Shepherd, bk. I, vision 4
Tertullian (160-225) — The Prescription against Heretics, ch. 4
Hippolytus (170-236) — On the End of the World and On Christ and Antichrist
Origen (185-253) — Contra Celsus, bk. VI, ch. 45-46, 79
Cyprian (?-258) — Epistles of Cyprian, Epistle 54, sect. 19
Victorinus (?-303) — Commentary on the Apocalypse, ch. 6.5, 7.2, 9.13-14, 13.13, 20.1-3
Rufinus (written 307-309) — Commentary of the Apostle's Creed, sect. 34
Lactantius (240?-320?) — Divine Institutes, Book VII (Of a Happy Life), ch. 19
Alexander of Alexandria (?-326) — Epistles of Arianism, 2.1
Athanasius (296-373) — History of the Arians, Part VIII, sect. 70-71, 78, 80
Cyril (315-386) — Catechetical Lectures, Lecture 15, sect. 9-12, 17-18, 33
Gregory Nazianzen (325-389) — Orations, Oration 21, sect. 21
Gregory of Nyssa (330-394) — Against Eunomius, bk. XI, sect. 4
John Chrysostom (374-407) — Homily 4
Sulpitius Severus (363-420) — Sacred History, bk. 2, ch. 7, 28, 33
St. Augustine (354-430) — City of God, bk. XVIII, ch. 53 and bk. XXI, ch. 26

Thousand Year Reign (6)
Fragments of Papias (60's-140?) — Fragment VI (from Eusebius, Hist. Eccl., III, 39); also see Jerome's De Viris Illustribus (On Illustrious Men), ch. 18
Justin Martyr (100-165) — Dialogue with Trypho, ch. 80-81
Irenaeus (115-202) — Against Heresies, bk. V, Ch. 32
Victorinus (?-303) — On the Creation of the World and Commentary on the Apocalypse, ch. 20.1-3
Methodius (?-311) — Banquet of the Ten Virgins, Discourse 9, ch. 1
Lactantius (240?-320?) — Divine Institutes, Book VII (Of a Happy Life), ch. 14, 22, 24 and 26

Students of John
Some claim that John was really banished under Nero and that Irenaeus got the name wrong. Nero ruled form 54 until his death in 68 A.D., so John would have been banished to Patmos in A.D. 68 and released that same year (the fourteenth year).

Polycarp was a hearer of John and was born by about 69 A.D. Papias was a companion of Polycarp and was also a hearer of John. He may have been born a couple of years earlier. It only makes sense that to be hearers/students of John, that they would have been at least teenagers or in their twenties. Tertullian states that the register in Smyrna has John ordaining Polycarp as bishop (The Prescription Against Heretics, ch. 32). This of course would conflict with the timing of John's death, if Nero was the Emperor in question. If John died within 5 years of Nero's death, the two students would have only been about 4-7 yrs. old. In other words John would have had to live long after Nero in order to have these two as students. Church tradition says that John died not long after his release from Patmos.

Since Irenaeus has John dying within a few years of the death of Domitian and Clement of Alexandria has John a very old man after the death of “the tyrant,” it seems much more reasonable that both spoke of Domitian. This makes both hearers around thirty years old when John died. This gives them plenty of time to hear the teachings of John.

Irenaeus has him dying in the early part of Trajan's reign (98-117), probably by the year 100 (A. H. Bk. II, ch. 22. 5).

Since John's name usually comes second, it is believed that he was the younger brother of James. They both worked for their father, so I presume them to be in their twenties with John being 25 or less. This would mean that John was 95 yrs. old or less when he died (in about the year 100), not 100 plus as some ridicule.

Hippolytus — end of the world
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0504.htm
Tertullian — The Prescription against Heretics, ch. 32
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0311.htm

Evidence for God from Science

The thousand year reign

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