puritan lad wrote:So how does God view infants? Are the infants of believers viewed any differently from the infants of unbelievers? Yes. The Bible says that the infants and children of believers (or even one believer) are "holy", where otherwise they would be unclean (1 Cor. 7:14). Does that mean that they are automatically saved? No, just like the unbelieving spouse, while sanctified (set apart as holy in covenant) may eventually be saved, although there are no guarantees (1 Cor. 7:16). Christian parents have the obligation to train up a child in the way of the Lord, so we don't presume that our children will automatically be Christians, but we do expect it. For the promise of the Holy Ghost is given to believers and their children (Acts 2:39).
All right, but what if believers' children die before even being able to comprehend the Gospel?
I agree believers' children aren't automatically saved, but those who die at a very young age might be allowed into Heaven. That is what the anecdotal independent assurance seems to suggest (there are numerous examples).
Keep in mind that the Bible concerns itself with the question how the reader / listener can be saved. It does not concern itself with the question how (and if) those who never hear / understand the Gospel can be saved.
The Bible says they were "willingly ignorant". In the Greek, this means "be dumb on purpose". (Kent Hovind)
Turgonian wrote:All right, but what if believers' children die before even being able to comprehend the Gospel?
I hold that they go to heaven, per David's son. (2 Samuel 12:23).
Turgonian wrote:I agree believers' children aren't automatically saved, but those who die at a very young age might be allowed into Heaven. That is what the anecdotal independent assurance seems to suggest (there are numerous examples).
I agree. But what about the "unclean" children of unbelievers? We want to say that they go to heaven as well, but the idea cannot be supported with Scripture.
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." - JOHN OWEN
Thank you, PL, that was probably the most thorough explanation of baptism that i have ever heard...and I was raised a Baptist . I only question your one statement:
PL wrote:Christian parents have the obligation to train up a child in the way of the Lord, so we don't presume that our children will automatically be Christians, but we do expect it. For the promise of the Holy Ghost is given to believers and their children (Acts 2:39).
How do you not presume something in the word of God but expect it at the same time?
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom
Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?
FFC wrote:Thank you, PL, that was probably the most thorough explanation of baptism that i have ever heard...and I was raised a Baptist :? . I only question your one statement:
PL wrote:Christian parents have the obligation to train up a child in the way of the Lord, so we don't presume that our children will automatically be Christians, but we do expect it. For the promise of the Holy Ghost is given to believers and their children (Acts 2:39).
How do you not presume something in the word of God but expect it at the same time?
We don't presume (take it for granted) that our children will be saved. This is why we must pray over our children and train up our children in the way they should go. We do, however, expect that our children will not depart from the faith as adults.
Of course, we also know that covenant children can and do sometimes rebel against God. This was true in the Old Testament as well.
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." - JOHN OWEN
PL wrote:We don't presume (take it for granted) that our children will be saved. This is why we must pray over our children and train up our children in the way they should go. We do, however, expect that our children will not depart from the faith as adults.
Okay, but all in all it's still up to God whether he elected them or not. Presumptions and expectations not withstanding, because God elects individuals not families...am I far off?
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom
Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?
PL wrote:We don't presume (take it for granted) that our children will be saved. This is why we must pray over our children and train up our children in the way they should go. We do, however, expect that our children will not depart from the faith as adults.
Okay, but all in all it's still up to God whether he elected them or not. Presumptions and expectations not withstanding, because God elects individuals not families...am I far off?
God elects individuals, but works through families. Let's face it, the majority of Christians on this earth today had at least one Christian family member who prayed for them. The family is God's most basic covenantal institution on earth. This is why, in the Old Testament, rebellious children were put to death. God takes the family structure very seriously, and rebellion against such is a form of treason. It is also why God hates divorce, adultery, etc., because of the way it destroys families. We could get into a deep discussion of case law, but I really don't want to open that can here. The Bible puts alot of emphasis on the structures and roles of Christian families and their members, and why it is so important for believers to marry believers.
God Bless,
PL
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." - JOHN OWEN
PL wrote:We don't presume (take it for granted) that our children will be saved. This is why we must pray over our children and train up our children in the way they should go. We do, however, expect that our children will not depart from the faith as adults.
Okay, but all in all it's still up to God whether he elected them or not. Presumptions and expectations not withstanding, because God elects individuals not families...am I far off?
God elects individuals, but works through families. Let's face it, the majority of Christians on this earth today had at least one Christian family member who prayed for them. The family is God's most basic covenantal institution on earth. This is why, in the Old Testament, rebellious children were put to death. God takes the family structure very seriously, and rebellion against such is a form of treason. It is also why God hates divorce, adultery, etc., because of the way it destroys families. We could get into a deep discussion of case law, but I really don't want to open that can here. The Bible puts alot of emphasis on the structures and roles of Christian families and their members, and why it is so important for believers to marry believers.
God Bless,
PL
I guess what puzzles me here is that if God elected and predetermined who would be saved from the foundation of the world, before families, before anything, then all the praying in the world for a family member would really do little as far as salvation of the child goes, because the matter has already been settled beforehand right?
Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Of course in your view you don't know which way a child will go, just as the Calvinist preacher in the pulpit doesn't know which way the listener in the pew will go...the word still has to be preached. Like Spurgeon said:
God has called me to preach His word and if I knew that all the elect had a yellow stripe painted down their backs, then I would give up preaching the gospel and go lift up shirt tails!
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom
Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?
Puritan Lad wrote:Simon Magus was baptized yet was unregenerate. (Acts 8:16-22).
What?
Simon himself believed and was baptized. (Acts 8:13, NIV)
So did he believe or not?
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
As far as the "Age of Accountability" goes, I'll say that it is a nice thought. It cannot, however, be supported from Scripture. (As much respect as I have for Spurgeon, he is just wrong here.) I don't see how the unclean children of pagans (1 Cor. 7:14) can make it into heaven, unless they are born of the Spirit.
Remember what John the baptist experienced while simultaneously being in his mothers womb? Who is to say that our Omni-benevolent, Thrice-Holy God does not do with these infants what He done for the infant John. Just because Scripture is doesn't reveal what takes place doesn't mean that God does not treat these infants in the same way. Though we currently only see in part, in a mirror dimly, we are destined to be shown the exceeding riches of His grace, and it is quite possible that this also along with a myriad of other things, comprehends the off-spring infants and young children of unbelievers.
Wait a minute... John the Baptist was born in a devout priestly family and was the herald of Jesus Himself. He was destined to play a very special role in the unfolding of God's plan with the world.
'Who is to say...?' No one, so I stick by what I said: the doctrine of 'Age of Accountability' is not biblical, but neither does the Bible tell us what will happen to infants who die. Therefore, we cannot say anything definite about it. In this matter, we must remain agnostics...
The Bible says they were "willingly ignorant". In the Greek, this means "be dumb on purpose". (Kent Hovind)
. I only question your one statement:
