Evidence for God from Science

madscientist wrote:

FFC wrote:All I'm sure of at this point in my life is that if your turn to God with a sincere heart in faith and believe that Jesus Christ is the only way of salvation for you then you are saved...regardless of emotions or intellect. God doen't save you according to how much you believe but by what you believe.

Well I am trying to turn to God - not that it is different from other people - but what i was asking here was just to make things cleaere etc. ANd so although it may seem like I am stupid or so it is just to make things clearer... Thanx God for his mercy!

I don't think you are stupid. Keep on asking your questions, and above all take them to God in prayer. He is faithful to those who truly want the truth.

Amen!

FFC wrote:I don't think you are stupid. Keep on asking your questions, and above all take them to God in prayer. He is faithful to those who truly want the truth.

OK thats what i was doing all the time asking rhose questions... anyway thanks God for his free gift of salvation!

madscientist wrote:

FFC wrote:I don't think you are stupid. Keep on asking your questions, and above all take them to God in prayer. He is faithful to those who truly want the truth.

OK thats what i was doing all the time asking rhose questions... anyway thanks God for his free gift of salvation!

Martin, you are a good man in my book... We all have questions... I've still got many questions as well..

All the best,

G -

Gman wrote:

madscientist wrote:

FFC wrote:I don't think you are stupid. Keep on asking your questions, and above all take them to God in prayer. He is faithful to those who truly want the truth.

OK thats what i was doing all the time asking rhose questions... anyway thanks God for his free gift of salvation!

Martin, you are a good man in my book... We all have questions... I've still got many questions as well..

All the best,

G -

Ya i knwo... if we wouldnt then there would be nothing to to in this life, would there?? BTW I wonder how it would feel to be omniscient, like God... who can NEVER experience SURPRISE... oor at least whgat I read somewhere... pretty shocking to imagine its something God cannot experience since he foreknows everything. Maybe sometimes its much more interesting to not know something and then suddenly learn it... dont kno just my opinion...

Now that is a good question.. I know that God changes his mind (see below). I thought this website brought up some interesting questions about it. Maybe he actually does experience surprise...

God Changed His Mind?

Quote: But Moses implored the LORD his God, and said, "O LORD, why does your wrath burn hot against your people, whom you brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? Why should the Egyptians say, `It was with evil intent that he brought them out to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth'? Turn from your fierce wrath; change your mind and do not bring disaster on your people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, your servants, how you swore to them by your own self, saying to them, `I will multiply your descendants like the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have promised I will give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.'" And the LORD changed his mind about the disaster that he planned to bring on his people.
-NRSV, Exodus 32:11-14

I've read this story about the golden calf many times, but it wasn't until my latest reading that the impact of that last verse hit me. God changed his mind! Do you see the implications of that? This also brings to mind the story of Jonah, and how the Ninevites repented, and God changed his mind and spared the city(Jonah 3:4-10). And the story of Abraham bargaining with God to try to save Sodom, and God agrees if 10 righteous men can be found in the city, he will spare it (Genesis 18:16-33). It brings to mind the story of Jesus and the Phoenician woman, whose daughter Jesus refused to heal because she wasn't Jewish, but, when the woman offers a quick comeback, saying that even the dogs deserve the crumbs that fall from the table, what does Jesus do? He changes his mind and heals her daughter (Mark 7:24-37).

Before continuing, I suppose it would be prudent to clarify exactly what I'm talking about here. The Hebrew term, which the New Revised Standard Version translates as "changed his mind," is nacham. Often it is translated as "repent," as in the Revised Standard Version; "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people."

This appears to be in direct contradiction to the immutability (changelessness) of God, as in Malachi 3:6; "For I, the Lord, do not change." In that passage, the Hebrew term is shaniti, a reference to the unchanging character of God, which would include mercy, love, compassion, and righteous judgment. In Exodus, the change, or repentence (nacham) of God was not a change of character, but a response to the actions of humanity, consistent with the unchanging nature of God. The promises and warnings of God are always conditional, based on the response of humanity (Ezekiel 33:13-16). So, to be clear, I'm not suggesting that God is a flip-flopper! Yet, it does seem apparent that in order to be consistent with God's nature, there is room for revision of the original plan. When the situation changes, God doesn't change, but sometimes the plan does.

Even within that more nuanced definition, the implications are still startling. Doesn't this mean that the future could not possibly be poured in concrete? Doesn't this mean that we have an important role in the acts of God; that we are, at times, co-creators with God? The Israelites repent, and God doesn't destroy them. Absolutely amazing.

Doesn't this mean that all the predictions of the end times, about Armageddon, are but one way things could work out? What if humanity repented? Doesn't this mean that it doesn't have to happen? This is but one implication. There are others, but I'll leave it to you to make those connections.

What new thing did I learn about God in this reading? That God demands justice, but that it is also God's nature to be merciful, so merciful that the plan can be changed.

What did I learn about humanity? That we are not puppets on a string. That we have some degree of responsibility regarding how the future unfolds. That we are partners with God, working together to transform this world.

This is good news!

http://www.frjakestopstheworld.blogspot ... -mind.html

I couldn't disagree more. Gman, you seem to disregard the text 'I make known the end from the beginnings' (Isaiah 46:10). See here for information on the word nacham. It basically means 'to grieve' and it is possible to grieve over something you have had to do.

About the 'repent' scenes with Abraham, Moses and Nineveh, this site says,

JP Holding wrote:Gen. 18:23-33. We won't quote this passage in entirety; suffice to say: It is the incident in which Abraham intercedes with God on behalf of Sodom, asking Him to spare the city in a classic ANE "marketplace bartering" conversation which probably served to give Abraham some idea what this new God of "his" was like!
Did God here offer to change His mind? Let's put it this way. The story, and Jeremiah above, indicates that with intercession and/or change, God will make a change in an announced plan. But if God is omniscient, then He knew in advance what Abraham would ask for -- and knew also what the end result would be. (Note that God asks, clearly rhetorically [18:17], whether He should tell Abraham what His plans are, and that the number of possible righteous goes only to 10 -- the next logical increment, 5, would have been less than the number of Lot's family of 6: Lot, his wife, his two daughters, and their prospective grooms. In essence Abraham is pleading for Lot's safety here!) God dealt with Abraham in human terms for his own sake; but even before the conversation started, the matter was decided. God did not change nor compromise, but in fact, in feigning ignorance (v. 21), dropped a very strong hint that intercession on Abraham's part was desired. This incident was more than a typical ANE barter-exchange, then: It was also a tone-setting meeting laying down the terms upon which God would relate to His covenant people. He knew what they would do; but He also wanted them to come to Him in their need. (And in any event, since all 6 members of Lot's family eventually fouled up, it was proven that there were no righteous people in Sodom on that day!)

This general principle of intercession -- which of course was always foreknown -- can be seen in other cites commonly used in this argument: Exodus 32:10-14; Numbers 16:20-35 and 44-50; 2 Kings 20:1-7, and Amos 7:3, 6.

This is an explanation of God 'changing his mind' (NOT) with regards to Abraham, Moses, and Nineveh.

About the Phoenician woman: see here. Jesus did not say 'NO, you're not a Jew', but 'WAIT, you're not a Jew (and my disciples need rest, and something about the message or the tone of voice urges you to press on, just like Abraham and Moses, if you ever heard those stories)'.

A quote from this site would wrap it up nicely:

The Bible does not reveal a God who sits on the edge of His seat anxiously awaiting man's next move in order that He might make a counter move. God has always known all things which would take place.

Turgonian wrote:I couldn't disagree more. Gman, you seem to disregard the text 'I make known the end from the beginnings' (Isaiah 46:10). See here for information on the word nacham. It basically means 'to grieve' and it is possible to grieve over something you have had to do.

About the 'repent' scenes with Abraham, Moses and Nineveh, this site says,

Well I couldn't disagree more with you too, kiddo... I think you are missing the point of what Father Jake was implying here. He is simply bringing up questions, (not being wishy washy as JP seems to think).. I think you are confusing a change with a mistake. God does not make mistakes.. Even though I'm not Catholic, I think what Jake is saying here is that God can change in his dealings or directions with people but not change his true character. God could do all this in his foreknowledge too (knew that he had to change plans)...

I thought this web site put things into perspective.

Take the example of the Ninevites in the Jonah passage. God's character towards the Ninevites has not changed.

Jonah 3:10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened.

He is still the same holy and righteous God that He was before Jonah's preaching. But when the Ninevites changed, God's dealings with them must change. God decided not to punish them based on a change that happened in the people (e.g. Nineveh's repentant attitude). What changed was the people, not God's standards or God's nature.
So we may say that God's character never changes, but His dealings with men change as they change from ungodliness to godliness. When a man bicycling against the wind turns around and goes with the wind instead of going against it, the wind seems to change, although it is blowing just as it was before.

Btw, I decided to look up more about this JP Holding guy, whom you seem to be quoting a lot.. I would be very careful about him. His real name apparently is Robert "Bob" Turkel, (guess he doesn't like his real name). He seems to be the type of guy who puts God in a box and claims to know him inside and out. No one knows God or all his ways totally.. Just an fyi, in the early 80's I too thought I had it all together. I was part of this group called the Way International. They told me that they had the Bible down pat and that everyone else was wrong. They turned me into an arrogant fool. So just beware... Can you tell me more about him? Does he care for the homeless or the needy? I don't see any food drives on the website for the poor.. What about praying for wisdom?

Don't take this personally but I found this statement by him to be rather arrogant... In other words it's all about HIM.

JP Holding wrote:"What are your credentials? I have a Masters' Degree in Library Science. What the runs down to is, I'm an expert at looking things up and answering questions.

Here are a few websites I found about him, looks like not everyone is in agreement with him:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Patrick_Holding
http://the-anointed-one.com/exposed.html
http://www.theskepticalreview.com/JFTBobbyTurkey.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/magazin ... 24jph.html

I guess he doesn't like to be confronted either... He just can't be wrong (it's too painful for him)..

http://the-anointed-one.com/exintro.html

the-anointed-one wrote:Turkel's attacks simply hide a fragile ego that, when challenged, responds by name-calling, mocking and a variety of other juvenile acts.

I want to know what you think, not this JP guy all the time...

Hope This helps...



G -

I guess God doesn't declare the end from the beginning, then (Isaiah 46:10), that He repents sometimes (Malachi 3:6), and does not predestine all things after the counsel of His will (Ephesians 1:11). And who's this Father Jake?
I am not talking about mistakes, but about changes. God did not 'change' His plan; in my understanding, His plan was to urge people to repent or intercede (without directly stating this -- but the people would have understood). You can't really 'change a plan' when you know with absolute knowledge you're not going to do what you're saying.

Since you don't like Holding, what about Arthur W. Pink?

GOD IS IMMUTABLE IN HIS COUNSEL. His will never varies. Perhaps some are ready to object that we ought to read the following: "And it repented the LORD that He had made man" (Gen 6:6). Our first reply is, Then do the Scriptures contradict themselves? No, that cannot be. Numbers 23:19 is plain enough: "God is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent." So also in 1 Samuel 15:29, "The Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for He is not a man, that He should repent." The explanation is very simple. When speaking of Himself, God frequently accommodates His language to our limited capacities. He describes Himself as clothed with bodily members, as eyes, ears, hands, etc. He speaks of Himself as "waking" (Psa 78:65), as "rising up early" (Jer 7:13); yet He neither slumbers nor sleeps. When He institutes a change in His dealings with men, He describes His course of conduct as "repenting." Yes, God is immutable in His counsel. "The gifts and calling of God are without repentance" (Rom 11:29). It must be so, for "He is in one mind, and who can turn from Him? and what His soul desireth, even that He doeth" (Job 23:13).

Change and decay in all around we see,
may He who changeth not abide with thee.

God's purpose never alters. One of two things causes a man to change his mind and reverse his plans: want of foresight to anticipate everything, or lack of power to execute them. But as God is both omniscient and omnipotent there is never any need for Him to revise His decrees. No, "The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of His heart to all generations" (Psa 33:11). Therefore do we read of "the immutability of His counsel" (Heb 6:17).

A 'surprised' god, or a god who 'changes His mind' (i.e. plans to bring destruction on a people and waits eagerly to see if they give Him cause to withhold judgement), is not my God, I'm afraid...

And careful about Holding? I don't think so... I mail with him now and then. He's a nice man, but he has a deep-rooted aversion to wilful stupidity, and he likes satire. He doesn't claim to know God 'inside and out', but he claims to have a lot of knowledge regarding the Ancient Near Eastern world (and he does!).
He doesn't think he knows everything -- he just talks with some authority about his field of expertise. But he refuses to debate e.g. creationism, admitting he isn't well-informed enough to do that. He expects others to be well-informed, too, before they come up with anti-Christian diatribes.
I don't know how much he does in the way of charity; if he would put that on his website, a lot of people (at 'the anointed one', for instance) would immediately start yelling about this display of self-righteousness. Some people are very concerned with caring for the poor; others are more concerned with spreading the faith among well-to-do intellectuals. We need both kinds of people in the world.

About that statement -- he's answering questions about himself that some people asked him. An 'About the author' section isn't wrong, even at an apologetics website. By the way, it's followed by another question,

JP Holding wrote:Is it true that J.P. Holding is not your real name? Yes and no. It was the name I was legally born with, which made it a good choice for a writing name. I adopted it for Tekton for reasons of personal security, as I formerly worked in a prison as a librarian. I no longer do, but the JPH name is now too well known to drop without causing confusion. I may even have it legally changed someday. If you are one of those odd people who think this is some worthwhile issue to make a fuss over, I probably don't care if you like this site or not.

I like him because he has my sense of humour...
He is continually confronted -- that's what happens to apologists, and he doesn't mind. What he doesn't like is being confronted with the same old arguments over and over again. His apologetics certainly do not amount to 'name-calling, mocking, &c.', or I wouldn't quote him so often. The site http://www.the-anointed-one.com is run by somebody who has been repeatedly and badly beaten by Holding, but who still maintains a rather aggressive attack. As Holding doesn't like that kind of guys, things escalate... (He is merciless toward Farrell Till, Mr Brains and Brooks Trubee, for instance; but he is quite willing to call less aggressive and arrogant skeptics, like Kyle Gerkin, 'friends'!)

But thanks for the warning anyway -- not about Holding, but for me personally; I'll take care that I don't become too arrogant.

Turgy wrote: I guess God doesn't declare the end from the beginning, then (Isaiah 46:10), that He repents sometimes (Malachi 3:6), and does not predestine all things after the counsel of His will (Ephesians 1:11). And who's this Father Jake?

I don't know this Father Jake guy either… I've heard the teachings of God changing his mind from somewhere else and I thought Father Jake reflected it well… I don't think that these verses (above) conflict with God changing plans. The purpose and character of God ALWAYS stays the same… Even if he knew he had to change some plans in his foreknowledge to compromise for us.

I am not talking about mistakes, but about changes. God did not 'change' His plan; in my understanding, His plan was to urge people to repent or intercede (without directly stating this -- but the people would have understood). You can't really 'change a plan' when you know with absolute knowledge you're not going to do what you're saying.

Since you don't like Holding, what about Arthur W. Pink?

I own that book by Arthur Pink… I'm simply letting Martin (madscientist) know that there are many different interpretations of God and the Bible.. I don't think God would change his ultimate plan, but he could compromise some of his other plans to get people on the right track.. After all, didn't he sacrifice his son for us? That was huge sacrifice of God.. And we know that God had to make that compromise for us from the beginning. It seems that how we behave (for good or for bad) determines how God may treats us. For me, God can 'adjust' His dealings with us dependent on how we behave and what choices we make, but he doesn't need to change his ultimate plans.

Btw, I'm not exactly a Calvinist either... (probably figured that out already).

That's all I'm saying here…

A 'surprised' god, or a god who 'changes His mind' (i.e. plans to bring destruction on a people and waits eagerly to see if they give Him cause to withhold judgement), is not my God, I'm afraid...

Yes, maybe your interpretation of God is different than others. Does that surprise you? Some say that God has emotions and is interactive with his people. Others say he just sits on his throne like a zombie and stares blankly into space... How do you know how God thinks or reacts to issues? Is it a sin for God to show any type of emotion? I think it should be left up to God on how he may or may not react to certain situations… And as for surprise, maybe he doesn't directly experience surprise with us, but maybe there are times when he does in other things. I don't know because I'm not God. I don't know exactly how God works..I guess one day we will find out, right?

Also, why do we always have to explain away what God is or how he thinks? Why can't it be left as a mystery? Is there something wrong with that?

Now about this Holding kid..

And careful about Holding? I don't think so... I mail with him now and then. He's a nice man, but he has a deep-rooted aversion to wilful stupidity, and he likes satire. He doesn't claim to know God 'inside and out', but he claims to have a lot of knowledge regarding the Ancient Near Eastern world (and he does!).

So he claims to be a teacher of the Bible? Well if he calls other people's interpretation of God and the Bible as “willful stupidity” then he is an arrogant teacher. Resulting to insults is a child-like behavior... Maybe that guy at "the anointed one" was right.. Also he does seem to claim to know a LOT about God and the Bible. He said he is an expert at answering questions… Why do we need God then? Shouldn't we go to him for all our answers? God is our ultimate “go to” for answering questions…

I don't know how much he does in the way of charity; if he would put that on his website, a lot of people (at 'the anointed one', for instance) would immediately start yelling about this display of self-righteousness. Some people are very concerned with caring for the poor; others are more concerned with spreading the faith among well-to-do intellectuals. We need both kinds of people in the world.

I usually find that these self professed intellectuals or geeks are neither. That is why they have to say they are intellectuals all the time because they are trying to convince others that they are. A real intellectual doesn't need to say such things…

Doesn't the Bible say that we will know people by their fruits? Doesn't Christ command us to give to the poor? If people want to talk the talk, they better know how to walk the talk too.. That means getting out from behind the computer and going out and helping those less fortunate than you.. It's not just a mind thing either, it's the whole person we need to address… Believe me, I've been through all this before. These type of guys sit behind their nice desks pushing pencils and pressing keyboard buttons all day. Didn't the Apostle Paul say that he worked to support himself at times and give to the poor? Are some people above these simple teachings? Also, if our works are not done out of charity it will NOT stand..

What ever happened to good old humility? Are people scared to be humble these days? Why?

Philippians 2:3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.

Btw, I'm not just addressing old JP here either, it's a cancer that has plagued many Christian ministers too..

I like him because he has my sense of humour...
He is continually confronted -- that's what happens to apologists, and he doesn't mind. What he doesn't like is being confronted with the same old arguments over and over again. His apologetics certainly do not amount to 'name-calling, mocking, &c.', or I wouldn't quote him so often.

But then he calls other people's interpretation of God and the Bible as “willful stupidity” if it doesn't line up with his? Are all Catholics stupid too? Sorry that doesn't fly with me.. I don't think it is funny either.

The site http://www.the-anointed-one.com is run by somebody who has been repeatedly and badly beaten by Holding, but who still maintains a rather aggressive attack. As Holding doesn't like that kind of guys, things escalate... (He is merciless toward Farrell Till, Mr Brains and Brooks Trubee, for instance; but he is quite willing to call less aggressive and arrogant skeptics, like Kyle Gerkin, 'friends'!)

I really don't know much about this guy JP or the other guy at the-anointed-one.. The more I read about JP's stuff, the more I'm getting turned off by it… Sounds like he is in love with himself...

Please don't let Holding get a hold of you…

Hope that helps Turgy.. Just run away..

G -

For me, God can 'adjust' His dealings with us dependent on how we behave and what choices we make, but he doesn't need to change his ultimate plans.

Adjust, adjust... It depends on how you define 'adjust'. When a sinner is saved, God 'adjusts' His dealings with him (declares the sinner legally free from sin). However, it was part of the eternal plan and didn't exactly 'surprise' God. The Crucifixion was part of the eternal plan, too...

Some say that God has emotions and is interactive with his people. Others say he just sits on his throne like a zombie and stares blankly into space...

Who says so? I don't.

Also, why do we always have to explain away what God is or how he thinks? Why can't it be left as a mystery? Is there something wrong with that?

We're Western Europeans. Get it?
If one Scripture seems to be in contradiction with another (does repent, doesn't repent), shouldn't we try to harmonize them? Or should we simply tell atheists, 'mystery'?

OK, I'm going to defend my teacher again.

Well if he calls other people's interpretation of God and the Bible as “willful stupidity” then he is an arrogant teacher.

No, he's nice to most Christians, even though he doesn't agree with them. It's arrogant atheists and skeptics he flames -- and only the arrogant ones.
The guy at 'the anointed one' is a skeptic who has been repeatedly beaten over the head with scholarship and uses a lot of child-like behaviour himself. My primary school teacher always said childish behaviour asked for childish punishments...

Also he does seem to claim to know a LOT about God and the Bible. He said he is an expert at answering questions… Why do we need God then? Shouldn't we go to him for all our answers? God is our ultimate “go to” for answering questions…

Ah, but the Holy Spirit doesn't give out leaflets explaining Greco-Roman rhetoric or Ancient Near Eastern law codes.
Why do we need apologists at all?
I agree that God is willing to give us answers to questions and He will help us in our struggles, but most of the objective facts I know come from humans, not God.

I usually find that these self professed intellectuals or geeks are neither. That is why they have to say they are intellectuals all the time because they are trying to convince others that they are. A real intellectual doesn't need to say such things…

Holding doesn't -- only in his 'About the author' section. If he makes an appeal to authority, it is to peer-reviewed scholarship, not his own brains. He doesn't talk about those much...

I told you, I simply don't KNOW what Holding does in the way of charity. He does have an article on humility, though.

Are all Catholics stupid too? Sorry that doesn't fly with me.. I don't think it is funny either.

No, only people who aggressively press an interpretation of the Bible that's shown to be wrong. If somebody would be debating you at this forum, you show he's wrong and he simply repeats himself and says 'you're a deluded fundy', what would you do? Holding starts being satirical...but not before!

Gman wrote:Why do we need God then? Shouldn't we go to him for all our answers? God is our ultimate “go to” for answering questions…

An afterthought: for atheists, God is certainly not a 'go to' for answering questions. Some atheists are really trying to look up as many alleged contradictions as possible, and this wrecks the faith of some. So it's good there are apologists who point out how exactly people misunderstand the Bible.
An exaggerated example (but real nonetheless; it won a 'Screwball of the Month Award' in Holding's contest ) is Romans 7:18b: 'For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.' An atheist commented something like, 'God is saying he wants to do good, but he can't...strange God.' This is a rather transparent example (Paul is talking, not God), but there are more difficult verses too. If they can make some atheists think about the Bible, they're doing good work, aren't they?

Ah... kinda confused now. I dont know why the I got the message that replies have been made only now, with a date when they were made. It happens sometimes, dunno why. So it took me a while to read it all and i had to on one go. So if am right, from what I read... God doesnt change his mind, thats for sure. And that plan and so on - the fact that God knows everything means he cannot change his plans since before he "changes" them he knows beforehand he'll change them so it cant really be called a change. If i know tomorrow I'll have to do this, and i know it and say lots of stuff "my original plan was diffrenet etc", while still knowing I'll do this and this then it is not really a change in mind.
BTW did God had to make the scripture and all that - although known beforehand and prophetic predictions, according to how HE wills it and then set people, or he KNEW how it would happen and so according to that he told people what to write in scripture? The question is, what is cause and consequence. Was it God wanted it to happen like that, and as a consequence (although before it happened) he told ppl to write it in the scriptures, or human free will comes first and if it were different then scriptures would have been differnet accorfing to that?

Martin wrote: Ah... kinda confused now. I dont know why the I got the message that replies have been made only now, with a date when they were made. It happens sometimes, dunno why. So it took me a while to read it all and i had to on one go. So if am right, from what I read... God doesnt change his mind, thats for sure. And that plan and so on - the fact that God knows everything means he cannot change his plans since before he "changes" them he knows beforehand he'll change them so it cant really be called a change. If i know tomorrow I'll have to do this, and i know it and say lots of stuff "my original plan was diffrenet etc", while still knowing I'll do this and this then it is not really a change in mind.
BTW did God had to make the scripture and all that - although known beforehand and prophetic predictions, according to how HE wills it and then set people, or he KNEW how it would happen and so according to that he told people what to write in scripture? The question is, what is cause and consequence. Was it God wanted it to happen like that, and as a consequence (although before it happened) he told ppl to write it in the scriptures, or human free will comes first and if it were different then scriptures would have been differnet accorfing to that?

Mad, are we driving you mad yet? What a lot of it boils down to is how you interpret free will.. If God is not going to manipulate us, if He is going to offer us the opportunity to express our freewill, then is He is at the mercy of that freewill? And if he is, does he need to change his plans for us? That's the million dollar question.. Some say yes, others say no.. Just do a word search on "free will" at this forum to find all the different views about it.. Sorry for the cheap answer..

Turgy wrote:Adjust, adjust... It depends on how you define 'adjust'. When a sinner is saved, God 'adjusts' His dealings with him (declares the sinner legally free from sin). However, it was part of the eternal plan and didn't exactly 'surprise' God. The Crucifixion was part of the eternal plan, too...

Yes, that is what I was saying before that God can adjust his dealings with us sinners and yes I don't think that the Crucifixion was a surprise to God. That was God's ultimate plan for us mortals that never changes... I just wanted to express to you how he will go out of his way for us and compromise for us...

We're Western Europeans. Get it?
If one Scripture seems to be in contradiction with another (does repent, doesn't repent), shouldn't we try to harmonize them? Or should we simply tell atheists, 'mystery'?

Now why are the westerners always smarter than the easterners and the northerners always smarter than the southerners?… Yes, I think harmonizing is ok… I just try to let atheists know that there are two sides to the coin. One group says it like this, another group says it like that. These debates on free will, faith, foreknowledge, etc.. have been going on since the beginning of time. What I try to do is display other views and let the person decided for themselves. For me I try not to get into the I'm right and you are wrong approach… I try to say this works for me, or this is how I understand it… When we come across as being too dogmatic it can kill arguments. I just try to let ideas fester… Although I know I can be dogmatic at times too..

As far as certain foundational truths, I don't think we should waver on those (such as accepting Christ as your Lord and savior or moral issues)… Which gets back to the question does God experience surprise? Which is why I implied a zombie like God in the beginning.. To be honest with you, how do we really know? Maybe he doesn't necessarily experience it us mortals, but maybe in other things possibly he does… How do YOU know? Of course we can quote scripture and say “see here” and “see that” but I always try to leave a little window open to different interpretations (as long as someone doesn't say that God is equal to hate or there is no God). After all, we are not God, right?

If I take a top and spin it real fast do we always know where it is going to go or spin out? We can see where it is heading to at times and we can blow on it to change it's direction… Maybe it is the same way with us too… I just think some people are too quick to say, “thus saith the Lord” and kill our minds for asking more questions.. Jehovah Witnesses are known for doing this too. Anyways, you could probably slice and dice it to death all your life if you wanted..

As far as mystery, do we know the actual date when Jesus is going to return? According to Matthew 24:36 it says it is a mystery for us to know..

Matthew 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

That was all I'm trying to say. Just leave a little window open to mystery. No one wants to be a know it all (and when someone thinks they are, they even look more absurd).. How boring can that be? Sometimes surprises are more exciting anyways, at least for me.

No, he's nice to most Christians, even though he doesn't agree with them. It's arrogant atheists and skeptics he flames -- and only the arrogant ones.
The guy at 'the anointed one' is a skeptic who has been repeatedly beaten over the head with scholarship and uses a lot of child-like behaviour himself. My primary school teacher always said childish behaviour asked for childish punishments...

I guess I can't blame him for being a little agitated with atheists.. I know they can be a real handful. Even I can lose my cool and feel I need to put my shields up with them. I would have a problem however if it results in name calling which the guy at the “anointed one” seems to think. In that regards I think we as Christians need to take the higher ground there and not stoop down to their level. Insults can actually move people away from God if they get too personal.. We all need to be careful of that…

Ah, but the Holy Spirit doesn't give out leaflets explaining Greco-Roman rhetoric or Ancient Near Eastern law codes.
Why do we need apologists at all?
I agree that God is willing to give us answers to questions and He will help us in our struggles, but most of the objective facts I know come from humans, not God.

That's not what I meant.. I'm not saying that we don't need apologists… We all need them… Sometimes we need humans and sometimes we need God. Let's just be professional about it.. If you are happy with him, then I wish you God's speed. I just wanted you to realize that he doesn't stack up high in everyone's book here..

Ok, that's it for me.. I've got to study now for my Unix/Linux course..

Take care,

G -

Gman wrote:Yes, that is what I was saying before that God can adjust his dealings with us sinners and yes I don't think that the Crucifixion was a surprise to God. That was God's ultimate plan for us mortals that never changes... I just wanted to express to you how he will go out of his way for us and compromise for us...

In that case, I guess I 'couldn't disagree more' too quickly, and I put my foot in my mouth. Sorry.

Gman wrote:Now why are the westerners always smarter than the easterners and the northerners always smarter than the southerners?…

Smarter? Not necessarily. More obsessed with letting everything make sense in a way that at least sounds more like sense than like mystery? Yes.

Gman wrote:What I try to do is display other views and let the person decided for themselves. For me I try not to get into the I'm right and you are wrong approach…

I think that's a wise course to take.

Gman wrote:How do YOU know? Of course we can quote scripture and say “see here” and “see that” but I always try to leave a little window open to different interpretations (as long as someone doesn't say that God is equal to hate or there is no God). After all, we are not God, right?

No...but I disagree with 'Open View Theology' because I think it compromises God's sovereignty, which is attested throughout the Bible -- I won't quote texts, but the way I read it, it's an underlying theme you can find on every page.

Gman wrote:As far as mystery, do we know the actual date when Jesus is going to return? According to Matthew 24:36 it says it is a mystery for us to know [...] That was all I'm trying to say. Just leave a little window open to mystery. No one wants to be a know it all (and when someone thinks they are, they even look more absurd).. How boring can that be? Sometimes surprises are more exciting anyways, at least for me.

That's right. But Christianity has a rational as well as a mystical side (and it's probably rather unique in that). We (the Westerners, yes...) tend to emphasize the rational side, even though we don't try to find out everything.

Gman wrote:I would have a problem however if it results in name calling which the guy at the “anointed one” seems to think. In that regards I think we as Christians need to take the higher ground there and not stoop down to their level. Insults can actually move people away from God if they get too personal.. We all need to be careful of that…

I think it depends. I would try hard not to offend an honest, sensitive seeker, but like you say, some atheists are arrogant and closed-minded. They're not going to listen to you anyway. What Holding does (and what I would probably do) is that he stops talking to them and starts saying one or two things about them...
I don't think ridiculizing aggressive opponents is always bad. If it is, we'd have to say one or two things to that politically incorrect prophet Elijah, with his 'Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked...' (I Kings 18:27)

Anyways, thanks for the insightful debate; I enjoyed it; and good luck with your course!