Evidence for God from Science

Posted: **Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:37 pm**

And I read up all the Peter Kreeft books I can get my hands on!

Posted: **Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:31 pm**

I just read the article today, unbelievable.

Although I agree with everything everyone has said so far, I don't think it was such a "good" idea for Pope Benedict to have made such remarks. I mean, I don't want catholic churches burning down just because someone said something that doesn't coincide with what the muslims believe (even if it is true), especially when that someone is the worldwide leader of a major relgion.

It only fuels anger and stirs up more fixtures on terrorism from terrorist groups who are just waiting for an excuse to commit terrorist acts. Pope Benedict should have realized this before, although I think his position on it is right, he didn't plan for whats ahead.

Muslims should have resolved this issue peacefully, but this is inevitable and the Pope should have been more cautious.

Posted: **Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:24 am**

If someone should not speak out because of a threat from acts of physical violence, then I personally think that is all the more reason to speak out. While one should factor in moral considerations, I believe freedom is a virtue which should never be given up under duress. As history has revealed many times over, freedom is a right humankind sees is worth fighting for. If one does not fight for it, such can lead to power being given to those making the threats and I am certain greater evils down the track.

I see extreme political correctness actually takes freedom away from many within Western society having opinions, and as such I very much respect the stance Benedict XVI made, especially given the post-modern and politically correct climate around him. Any atrocities which occur because of his words are entirely on the hands of those committing them, not Benedict's.

Kurieuo

Posted: **Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:23 am**

Kurieuo wrote:I see extreme political correctness actually takes freedom away from many within Western society having opinions, and as such I very much respect the stance Benedict XVI made, especially given the post-modern and politically correct climate around him. Any atrocities which occur because of his words are entirely on the hands of those committing them, not Benedict's.

Yes, and if any more of those atrocities happen it is almost an affirmation of Benedict's words. I don't necessarily think that the problem started with Benedicts. Al-Qaeda's number 2 has already stated that there would be retributions coming long before his remarks. If they do something more sinister now, it's more like a dare...

G -

Posted: **Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:16 am**

A nun is shot in the back and killed in Somalia and now Iraq's Al Quaida vows war against 'Worshipers of the Cross'.

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/World/Papacy_and_the_Vatican

Where are the Moslem moderates?

Posted: **Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:42 am**

Byblos wrote:Where are the Moslem moderates?

They don't exist. As we talked about before, the enemy is Islamic ideology. "Moderate" Muslims are just secular Muslims. They don't practice their religion. Muslims can't get away from the Hadith - basically a commentary on the life of Muhammed, telling them how to actually practice their religion. It's one of the key places the idea of Jihad is described (link)

Asking where "moderate" Muslims are would be like asking where a "moderate" Nazi was during WWII. There may have been many people in the party who disagreed with the leadership or were simply ignorant of the facts, but it isn't because they were "moderate." It is because they didn't truly hold to the ideology in the first place.

Islam is not a religion of peace. It is a religion of dominance. If you submit, they let you live. That's their idea of "peace." Your "moderates" are the ones who don't feel they can or should dominate. They aren't true Muslims.

Posted: **Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:37 am**

Byblos wrote:Where are the Moslem moderates?

Right here.

Jac3510 wrote:Asking where "moderate" Muslims are would be like asking where a "moderate" Nazi was during WWII. There may have been many people in the party who disagreed with the leadership or were simply ignorant of the facts, but it isn't because they were "moderate." It is because they didn't truly hold to the ideology in the first place.

A better analogy would be “asking where the Germans that oppose the Nazis in WWII are”. The majority of these actions are committed/condoned/ordered by powerful leaders (politically or economically) that hold a strong grip over their societies. Anybody who condemns what they do become potential targets, just like in WWII. There is no room for true Islam in these countries.

Posted: **Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:45 am**

Lizard Man wrote:
Byblos wrote:Where are the Moslem moderates?
Right here.

Jac3510 wrote:Asking where "moderate" Muslims are would be like asking where a "moderate" Nazi was during WWII. There may have been many people in the party who disagreed with the leadership or were simply ignorant of the facts, but it isn't because they were "moderate." It is because they didn't truly hold to the ideology in the first place.
A better analogy would be “asking where the Germans that oppose the Nazis in WWII are”. The majority of these actions are committed/condoned/ordered by powerful leaders (politically or economically) that hold a strong grip over their societies. Anybody who condemns what they do become potential targets, just like in WWII. There is no room for true Islam in these countries.

That's an alarming analogy in many ways. Even in Nazi Germany there was an underground and leaders outside who left that spoke openly and worked openly against what was happening back "home."

It seems there are few such voices and actions within even the moderate states of Islam and that silence is taken for assent.

Voices raised would be a good start. Where are the voices and more importantly, what is being done?

Posted: **Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:53 am**

Canuckster1127 wrote:That's an alarming analogy in many ways. Even in Nazi Germany there was an underground and leaders outside who left that spoke openly and worked openly against what was happening back "home."

That's pretty easy to answer. My father was in Iraq for both wars. According to him, most Muslims were more than happy to show their support and expose the hiding spots of extremists. The reason why this isn't reported in the media is because it's not what most people want to hear.

Posted: **Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:59 am**

For any interested, here is the full text of the pope's comments which raised this current stink.

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=46474

It's a long speech and made in an academic setting. The "offending" comments were made right near the beginning and they really were just an example to set the stage for the primary comments which followed.

I'm not catholic. I don't see that the comments misconstrue or impugn anything.

The greatest comment as to the peacable nature of Islam lies not in this comment made almost 700 years ago, but in the behavior of islamic faction here and now.

I want to believe that there is a moderate faction to Islam, but the more I read and see into the issues the more I see laid back a very unseemly, violent and irrational system that has a far greater percentage of Islam held captive than I can see where Christianity had its violent, crusading elements of the past.

That is not to say that all those who are Muslims fit that bill. But the impact and importance of moderate muslims who do not raise their voices in objection to this highjacking of their beliefs is one of tacit acceptance and support. More important would be also actions taken to oppose and expose these more violent and radical factions.

I believe more and more that we are seeing the culmination and forcing of a cultural, religious war that has been growing since the early days of Islam and will not settle for anything less than complete world domination, and acceptance of their faith by the sword.

Posted: **Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:31 pm**

Lizard Man wrote:A better analogy would be “asking where the Germans that oppose the Nazis in WWII are”. The majority of these actions are committed/condoned/ordered by powerful leaders (politically or economically) that hold a strong grip over their societies. Anybody who condemns what they do become potential targets, just like in WWII. There is no room for true Islam in these countries.

Lizard, can you tell us from the Quran where it condemns such actions from the terrorists? Actions such as jihad against the west?

Also what is true Islam? Why do the majority of muslims don't seem to be following it?

Posted: **Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:16 pm**

Gman wrote:Lizard, can you tell us from the Quran where it condemns such actions from the terrorists? Actions such as jihad against the west?

"Give a Warning to those who deny Allah's revelations, who slay the prophets without any justification, and who kill those from among the people who enjoin justice, that there is a painful punishment for them."
3:[21]

"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight against you, but do not transgress your limits. Allah does not like transgressers"
2:[19]

"On account of that incident, we ordained for the children of Israel that whoever kills a person, except as punishment for murder of mischief on the land, it will be written in his book of deeds as if hehad killed all the human beings and whoever will save a lifeshall be regarded as if he gave life to all human beings. Yet, even though our Rasools came to them one after the otherwith clear revelations, it was not long before, many of them committed excesses in the land."
5:[32]

It's also important that you understand what Jihad means.

"Jihad means "striving," or trying to live and do everything for the love of Allah. For most Muslims, this means prayer or giving extra money to charity - any effort people make to serve Allah to the best of their ability. This is "major jihad." Sometimes the word jihad is used to apply to a war situation, and is translated as "holy war." This is "minor jihad." Holy wars can only be fought in defense, never as the aggressor, and there are strict ways in which the war must be fought."
- Sue Penney, World Beliefs and Cultures: Islam

Gman wrote: Also what is true Islam? Why do the majority of muslims don't seem to be following it?

Submission to God, if you want the barebones deal. However, a select few Muslims don't understand or choose not to understand what that means. I think that the last sermon of Muhammad (PBUH), the role model of mankind, best answers your question:

"O People, lend me an attentive ear, for I know not whether after this year I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore listen to what I am saying very carefully and take these words to those who could not be present here today.

O People, just as you regard this month, this day, this city as Sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners. Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Remember that you will indeed meet your Lord, and that he will indeed reckon your deeds. Allah has forbidden you to take usury (interest), therefore all interest obligations shall henceforth be waived. Your capital is yours to keep. You will neither inflict nor suffer any inequity. Allah has judged that there shall be no interest and that all the interest due to Abbas ibn 'Abd'al Muttalib [the Prophet's uncle] be waived.

Every right arising out of homicide in pre-islamic days is henceforth waived and the first such right that i waive is that arising from the murder of Rabiah ibn al Harithibn.

O People, the unbelievers indulge in tampering with the calender in order to make permissible that which Allah forbade, and to forbid that which Allah has made permissible. With Allah the months are twelve in number. Four of them are holy, three of these are successive and one occurs singly between the months of Jumada and Shaban.

Beware of Satan, for the safety of your religion. He has lost all hope of that he will be able to lead you astray in big things, so beware of following him in small things.

O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right, then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with anyone of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste. O People, listen to me in earnest, worship Allah, say your five daily prayers, fast during the month of Ramadhan, and give your wealth in Zakat. Perform Hajj if you can afford to.

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over a white - except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not therefore do injustice to yourselves. Remember one day you will meet Allah and answer your deeds. So beware: do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone.

O People, no prophet or apostle will come after me, and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand my words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Qur'an and my Sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray.

All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly. Be my witness, O Allah, that I have conveyed Your message to Your people."

I also want to make clear that I am not here to debate the authenticity of Christian doctrines. This is, after all, a Christian board and doing so would be very distasteful. My intention is to clear up some misunderstandings that Christians have about Islam, not for the sake of conversion, but to blur the line between "us and them".

Posted: **Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:03 pm**

Lizard Man, do you understand the doctrine of abrogator and the abrogated in the Qur'an (al Nasikh wal Mansoukh) ?

This Qur'anic doctrine is based on two verses, namely:

~ Surah 2: 106 "None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?"
~ Surah 16:101 "When We substitute one revelation for another, and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not."

With regards to Surahs 3:21, 2:19, and 5:32 that you have quoted to show where actions of terrorism are condemned in the Qur'an, each of these verses are abrogated by Surah 9:5, the verse of the Sword.

~ Surah 9:5 "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)....."

For more information on those peaceful verses that are abrogated by others which support the verse of the Sword, check out this paper by Abdullah Al Araby.

Lizard Man, I know that "moderate Muslims" put themselves in grave danger should they speak out against their more devout brothers who practise Islam according to the theological principle of nasikh. You are likely to be regarded as apostates and then subjected to the same treatment as though you are infidels, namely torture and death, should you not comply with them. Of course that makes it very difficult for you to speak out against "militant Islam". But it is people like Osama bin Laden who are practising the correctly interpreted (according to al Nasikh wal Mansoukh) Islam, and those who persistently claim that Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance are denying the truth of their own religion.

Lizard Man wrote:I also want to make clear that I am not here to debate the authenticity of Christian doctrines. This is, after all, a Christian board and doing so would be very distasteful. My intention is to clear up some misunderstandings that Christians have about Islam, not for the sake of conversion, but to blur the line between "us and them".

I appreciate your sensitivity in not being here to debate the authenticity of Christine doctrines. But when it comes to misunderstandings that Christians may have of Islam, the biggest misunderstanding is that Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance. That is simply just not true. Not only is the evidence there for all to see in the Qur'an, and in the lifestyle of your prophet, but also in the history of Islamic imperialism with the intention of forcing a foreign ideology on believers of other faiths - submit or you must be subdued or killed - and current day atrocities of terorism, etc.
For those with any doubt about these things, check out the objective facts here.

Posted: **Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:34 pm**

Again Judah get's to the point... Thanks Judah.

Lizard Man wrote:"Give a Warning to those who deny Allah's revelations, who slay the prophets without any justification, and who kill those from among the people who enjoin justice, that there is a painful punishment for them."

Give a warning? What exactly did the U.S. do so bad in the eye's of Islam? Did we kill their prophet's? Did the U.S. make war on Islam?? Why is Islam violating it's own commandments then?

"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight against you, but do not transgress your limits. Allah does not like transgressers"

This verse says to fight for the cause of Allah, but when you fight don't go too far... How does this prevent a terrorist from attacking you? If anything it is promoting it...

"On account of that incident, we ordained for the children of Israel that whoever kills a person, except as punishment for murder of mischief on the land, it will be written in his book of deeds as if hehad killed all the human beings and whoever will save a lifeshall be regarded as if he gave life to all human beings. Yet, even though our Rasools came to them one after the otherwith clear revelations, it was not long before, many of them committed excesses in the land."

Not too sure about this one... It is not very direct at all. The verse after that (Surah 5:33) seems to contradict what you have said... It states..

The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;[Surah 5:33]

Again how has the U.S. waged war against Allah and his messenger? If anything the U.S. has been promoting the muslim cause by letting mosques be built in the country..

Just for your own information America is a secular nation... For the most part Christianity is frowned upon by most of the secular people.

Submission to God, if you want the barebones deal. However, a select few Muslims don't understand or choose not to understand what that means. I think that the last sermon of Muhammad (PBUH), the role model of mankind, best answers your question:

"O People, lend me an attentive ear, for I know not whether after this year I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore listen to what I am saying very carefully and take these words to those who could not be present here today.

O People, just as you regard this month, this day, this city as Sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners. Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Remember that you will indeed meet your Lord, and that he will indeed reckon your deeds. Allah has forbidden you to take usury (interest), therefore all interest obligations shall henceforth be waived. Your capital is yours to keep. You will neither inflict nor suffer any inequity. Allah has judged that there shall be no interest and that all the interest due to Abbas ibn 'Abd'al Muttalib [the Prophet's uncle] be waived.

Every right arising out of homicide in pre-islamic days is henceforth waived and the first such right that i waive is that arising from the murder of Rabiah ibn al Harithibn.

O People, the unbelievers indulge in tampering with the calender in order to make permissible that which Allah forbade, and to forbid that which Allah has made permissible. With Allah the months are twelve in number. Four of them are holy, three of these are successive and one occurs singly between the months of Jumada and Shaban.

Beware of Satan, for the safety of your religion. He has lost all hope of that he will be able to lead you astray in big things, so beware of following him in small things.

O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right, then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with anyone of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste. O People, listen to me in earnest, worship Allah, say your five daily prayers, fast during the month of Ramadhan, and give your wealth in Zakat. Perform Hajj if you can afford to.

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over a white - except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not therefore do injustice to yourselves. Remember one day you will meet Allah and answer your deeds. So beware: do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone.

O People, no prophet or apostle will come after me, and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand my words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Qur'an and my Sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray.

All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly. Be my witness, O Allah, that I have conveyed Your message to Your people."

If this was so important to the muslim culture why was it omitted from the Quran? Is should have been fused into it from the beginning... It seems more like a band-aid to me... Sorry...

I also want to make clear that I am not here to debate the authenticity of Christian doctrines. This is, after all, a Christian board and doing so would be very distasteful. My intention is to clear up some misunderstandings that Christians have about Islam, not for the sake of conversion, but to blur the line between "us and them".

No problem Lizard... And I don't think we here have anything against you personally. You seem like a nice person... We just don't see where Islam fits in a democracy... Take care, may God bless you..

Posted: **Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:52 pm**

The pope didn't anger the Muslims. I doubt most Muslims know what he said. The Muslims just used him as an excuse. They hate us already because we're not Muslims, and the Koran paints a beautiful picture of how wonderful infidels are. It's unthinkable that they can't hate us much more for saying they're evil, irrational, and violent.

Evidence for God from Science

Muslim anger over Pope