Evidence for God from Science

No offense here Don, but I really don't know what you are advocating either... Please be clearer for us. That's all...

Thank you,

G -

Bart,

You said…

You've been given an entire article with multiple citations of Scripture. I don't expect a point by point dissertation, but surely you can interact and provide either a challenge where you believe the Scripture presented to you is either out of context or misunderstood?

Again Bart, I thought I was doing exactly what you said here. I commented on the first statement in the material you sent about the Bible offering the choice between "heaven and hell." I said that what I had only seen was that the Bible's choice was between everlasting life or death. Examples: Romans 6:23 and John 3:13

I then asked you if you knew of any Scriptures that show the Bible's choice is between everlasting life in heaven or everlasting life in hell. Isn't this interacting with you based on the material you provided?

You also said…

It's not unreasonable to expect some response to the questions asked of you, as your questions are being addressed too.

But so far my questions to you have notbeen addressed. I have asked, Where in the Bible does it state that the alternatives are either everlasting life in heaven or everlasting life in hell? So far I have not been able to find where the Bible says such a thing. The long discussion you sent doesn't show where the Bible says it.

Anyway — you asked…

Would you please state for me: What your position is in this regard?

My understanding at this point is that “the lake of fire” of Revelation 20:14 is just a symbol that represents everlasting destruction. I have noted that verse 14 itself explains that this “lake” is, or means, “the second death.”

The fact that the condition of “death” and the empty place called “Hades” are both thrown into that “lake” suggests to me that that it is not necessary to understand this “lake” literally. I ask myself, How is it possible to torture or consciously punish death or Hades with a literal fire? It looks to me that since “death will be no more” (Rev. 21:4), then there will be no need for a place to put the dead (Hades). Therefore death and Hades will be symbolically destroyed in the second death.

And so, just as the second death brings an end to death and hades, it also brings an end to everyone who ends up there.

The Scriptural foundation of your position?
One of the Scriptures that has affected me is Jeremiah 7:31. That's where God mentions how the Jews had gotten so bad that they had “built the high places of Topheth which is in the valley of the Son of Hinnom (later to become the garbage dump called Gehenna) in order to burn their sons and daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded them and had not come up into my heart.'

It is difficult for me to believe that God would be so concerned and upset with the Jews for doing such a thing while knowing full well that He himself was going to something much worse by burning billions of sons and daughters forever and ever in a huge blazing lake of fire.

You also asked…

If you wouldn't mind, it might help a little too if you share a little about yourself and your background and church affiliation and history just so we can understand better where you are coming from.

OK, here goes…

I was associated with the Watchtower Society for 21 years. But in 1984 I finally woke up and came to realize that God and Jesus Christ have never had anything to do with this organization. I eventually wrote the book “Captives of a Concept” which is designed to help the reader understand the illusionary concept that holds millions of Jehovah's Witnesses captive by controlling how they think and act without them realizing it.

There is additional information about the book at http://www.CaptivesOfaConcept.com

Don

Hi Don,
It seems to me that whatever "the lake of fire" is, symbolic or not, it carries with it torment that lasts forever. I'm thinking that no matter what the source of the torment is, the separation from God and the realization that it is never ending is enough punishment in itself.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Don wrote:It is difficult for me to believe that God would be so concerned and upset with the Jews for doing such a thing while knowing full well that He himself was going to something much worse by burning billions of sons and daughters forever and ever in a huge blazing lake of fire.

The fact is that whether we like it or not God can do anything He wants with His creations because they belong to Him. We humans don't have that right and that is why He was upset with the Jews for doing what they did.

Also keep in mind that He never sends sons and daughters to hell...only those who reject Him and refuse to accept and believe in Him. We only become His sons and daughters when we are adopted into His family through the shed blood of his Son...and then any and all fear of eternal punishment is non existent.

Romans 8:1

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

What do you think?

FFC

Annihilationism: An Unbiblical Doctrine.

Hi FFC,

You said...

The fact is that whether we like it or not God can do anything He wants with His creations because they belong to Him. We humans don't have that right.

I have to agree.

Question: What do you (or anyone else) understand is meant when Rev. 20:14 says that "death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire"?

Don

Don wrote:Question: What do you (or anyone else) understand is meant when Rev. 20:14 says that "death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire"?

After the final great white judgement and all is said and done by God, all who are dead in their sins and waiting in Hades are sent to their final destination...The lake of fire.

What do you think it means? And how is eternal torment connected to it?

Hi again FFC,

I asked...

What do you understand is meant when Rev. 20:14 says that "death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire"?

You answered...

After the final great white judgement and all is said and done by God, all who are dead in their sins and waiting in Hades are sent to their final destination...The lake of fire.

You seem to be answering what verse 15 means where it says that "Whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire."

But what does verse 14 mean when it says that death and Hades were hurled into that same lake?

I understand it to mean that death and Hades will be put out of existence. This would fit with Rev. 21:4 where it says that "death will be no more." Since people won't be dying any more there will be no need for a place to put them (i.e. Hades).

And I therefore I understand verse 15 to mean that whoever was not found written in the book of life will also go out of existence.

Don

Don wrote:I understand it to mean that death and Hades will be put out of existence. This would fit with Rev. 21:4 where it says that "death will be no more." Since people won't be dying any more there will be no need for a place to put them (i.e. Hades).

Yes, I thought I was expressing the same thought when I said:

After the final great white judgement and all is said and done by God, all who are dead in their sins and waiting in Hades are sent to their final destination...The lake of fire.

Don wrote:And I therefore I understand verse 15 to mean that whoever was not found written in the book of life will also go out of existence.

I thought that was where you were going, Don, which is why I asked:

And how is eternal torment connected to it?

You can't be put out of existence and suffer eternal torment...can you? I'm no physicist but I don't think someone who has been Annihilated or put out of existence can suffer any kind of sensory perception.

Hi FFC,

I had said that I understood that when Revelation 20:14 says that death and Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire that it meant that death and Hades will be put out of existence.

You then said…
Yes, I thought I was expressing the same thought when I said: “After the final great white judgement and all is said and done by God, all who are dead in their sins and waiting in Hades are sent to their final destination...The lake of fire.”

But again FFC, it still seems to me that you are not “expressing the same thought.” Verse 14 is talking about what will happen to the condition of death and the place called Hades but you are talking about what will happen to people who are “dead in their sins and waiting in Hades.”

Perhaps I'm being too 'picky' - but your above thought that the dead are “waiting in Hades” doesn't seem to agree with verse 13 where it explains that by the time the judgment takes place there isn't anyone “waiting in Hades.” It is emptied of everyone who was in it before the judgement takes place. Hades is empty when it is eventually thrown into the lake of fire.

You brought up an important point that I need to deal with. What do I do with Revelation 20:10 where it says that “the Devil…was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet already were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” See also Rev. 19:20 where is says that “while still alive (the false prophet and wild beast) were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur.”

I don't expect anyone to necessarily agree with me, but here is what I do with the above…

First of all I always keep in mind that the book of Revelation was “presented in signs” (1:1) And so I don't automatically take everything that is said in the book literally.

For example, I don't think “the wild beast” mentioned in 19:20 is an actual wild beast. I assume that it as a sign or symbol of something. The same with the “false prophet.” I don't think of it necessarily being just one particular person. I don't picture “the mark of the wild beast” as having to be an actual physical mark on people who have been mislead by the false prophet.

I don't think the “horse” mentioned in verses 19 and 21 is a real horse. Nor that there is someone literally sitting on that horse. I don't picture a literal sword coming out of the literal mouth of the one who is said to be seated on that horse.

And just as I don't picture a literal wild beast, false prophet, horse or sword, I also don't picture a literal “lake of fire” that is mentioned in verse 20. I feel that all these things are just “signs” that represent other things. As far as that “lake of fire” (which is later identified as “the second death”) is concerned, I personally feel that it just represents everlasting destruction of everything that is said to go into it. This would include the wild beast, the false prophet, Satan the Devil, death, Hades and everyone not found written in “the book of life.” (I don't picture “the book of life” as being a literal book.)

What about the word “tormented” mentioned in 20:10? Well, if there is no literal lake of fire, then no one can be literally thrown into it. If that lake doesn't actually exist anywhere inside or outside the Universe, then no one can be literally tormented by the non-existent fire that is said to be in it.

As far as “tormented” is concerned, I once read the explanation that in those days people who were responsible for keeping people in jail (“jailers”) were called “tormentors” even though they didn't actually torment the prisoners. They just made sure that all those in prison remained there for as long as they were suppose to. And so when Revelation speaks of being “tormented forever and ever” I understand it to indicate that those who had been thrown into this symbolic “lake” will remain jailed in it forever. Or as Jesus said in John 3:13, they will “perish,” which means to bring to nothing by putting out of existence.

Again, I'm not suggesting or expecting that you or anyone else should accept my way of looking on this matter. It is just an attempt to explain my way of looking at it. I suspect that the above explanation of “tormented” will be viewed as quite a stretch by those who feel that “the lake of fire” and “tormented” must be taken literally.

Don

Don,

I'm not ignoring your post.

Have a lot on my plate right now and I need to set some time where I can respond thoughtfully.

I will respond when I can.

Thanks.

Bart

Don,

Just wanted to let you know, I hadn't forgotten this. I think however we're dealing with some of it in the other thread.

Also, I finally took the time to take a look at your site with regard to your book. I didn't make the connection at first that your book was one Rich Deem had reviewed.

It looks very thorough and I compliment you on putting it together and hope it is effective in its purpose.

I'm glad you're here and involved in the discussion board.

We obviously disagree on this issue, and it's a valuable conversation to have. I don't know where you stand on other issues, but if this is the primary one of disagreement, important as it is, I'm hopeful we agree on much more and others and ourselves can learn as we discourse.

Bart

idolatry, adultery, prostitution
theft, greed, drunkenness
swindling, impurity, witchcraft
discord, jealousy, fits of rage
dissensions, factions, and envy orgies
lying, cowardice, unbelief
sorcery, sexual immorality, homosexual offenses
slander, hatred, selfish ambition
abomination, murder

Given that any sin will separate us from God, isn't there an infinite list of potential sins that would send us to hell? We still depend on Christ for salvation, even if we have done some of these things.

krynn9000 wrote:

idolatry, adultery, prostitution
theft, greed, drunkenness
swindling, impurity, witchcraft
discord, jealousy, fits of rage
dissensions, factions, and envy orgies
lying, cowardice, unbelief
sorcery, sexual immorality, homosexual offenses
slander, hatred, selfish ambition
abomination, murder

Given that any sin will separate us from God, isn't there an infinite list of potential sins that would send us to hell? We still depend on Christ for salvation, even if we have done some of these things.

Yes, even if it was possible for someone besides Christ to never have committed any of these sins we still have a sin nature that separates us from God and that is why, without the reconciliation through Christ's death on the cross, we will die in our sins and end up in hell.

But because of the 'sin nature', we commit sins. God judges us not on the basis of our 'sin nature', but our actual sins.

However, let's get back to topic.

Turgonian wrote:But because of the 'sin nature', we commit sins. God judges us not on the basis of our 'sin nature', but our actual sins.

However, let's get back to topic.

I think we still are on topic, what with the sin and hell talk.

As far as sins we commit sending us to hell and not our sin nature, I disagree. When God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil, because in the day that they did they would die, He was talking about spiritual death. The sins that we commit are just the manifestation of that condition, not the cause of our separation from God. No spiritually dead person can ever enter the kingdom of God.