Evidence for God from Science

August wrote:Michelle, do you not think that the war on radical Islam is unlike any other war ever fought?

I fought in a war in Africa myself, and it is no bed of roses. I saw way too many innocent people die, and human beings do unimaginable things to each other. War is hell on earth. Unfortunately, when in a war, one has to choose the lesser of evils. Of course everyone would prefer to not go to war, or when in a war, arrange duelling pistols at 3 on the lawn. But that is not how it works. It is a dirty, messy, barbaric and bloody affair, and involves the spilling of blood, whether we like it or not. No-one enters a war with the intent to lose, and especially in this case, where the one side deliberately chooses to attack civilian targets, it is imperative to keep the war away from those civilians.

I do not condone torture, don't get me wrong. But just as the killing of a fellow human being is sometimes unavoidable, so is the extraction of information to save lives. It is a sad and unfair choice, but a necessary one.

I think it is good that there are organisations that keeps an eye on these types of things, it keeps everyone on their toes. However, it is very disappointing that I cannot find a condemnation or expression of outrage against the terrorists, not even an appeal for them to stop attacking civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan. If organisations like AI wants to keep some semblance of credibility, they should be equally critical of all abusers of human rights.

Thanks for your comments. I am saddened that you saw so many atrocities. It makes me angry that as humans we do this to each other. It does though demonstrate that the only true leader that can possibly ever bring a world of peace is to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. How sad that our world has gone so far from him and God.

I absolutely do condemn terrorism. And you are right about AI. They should put their money where their mouth is. I joined them but sometimes feel quite disillusioned with their lack of response to acts of terrorism and how they don't make a stand. By the way I am not an active member but contribute financially.

On a personal level I will speak up against any form of injustice done to a person. I have stood up and condemned the events in East Timor, in Rwanda, the Bosnian war, Indonesia, Aboriginal injustice and so on. Why? Because someone once said 'bad things happen when good people do nothing.' So maybe that is why I come across so strong at times. Over the years I have like you, seen some terrible things humans have done to each other. I went through many things myself, however I am referring to other people. What I couldn't understand was that some of the perpetrators were actually born again Christians. Anyway I guess that is something I will have to come to terms with.

Michelle wrote: {...clip...}It makes me angry that as humans we do this to each other. It does though demonstrate that the only true leader that can possibly ever bring a world of peace is to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. How sad that our world has gone so far from him and God.

I'm afraid that none of our following of the teachings of Jesus Christ, not of our own accord, will ever bring about a world of peace.
As you remarked further on...

Michelle wrote:What I couldn't understand was that some of the perpetrators were actually born again Christians.

...humans, being sinners, are not going to achieve this world of peace.

Pretty much all of us fail regardless of how hard we try. We are all sinners, even the very best saints among us. Following teachings alone is no guarrantee.

It is not until the work of the Holy Spirit within those professing a saving faith in Christ is finished, and we are made perfect in Him, will this situation ever happen. Then the meek (humble) shall inherit the earth.

Those of us who are Christians are working towards that day now, by having accepted His invitation to this unique relationship with Him. When the day comes that we see Him face-to-face, we believe we will be made perfect. He works within us, those who love Him. While we still fall well short of the mark at present, the more we all stop obstructing His work within us, the sooner the day will come that all this evil and bloodshed will end.

My point is this, that it is not just in following the teachings of Christ, but by allowing Him to work in one's own heart such that the old sinful self dies and a completely new spiritual self in Him lives, that His real work is done - and will bring an end to the evil we see now.

You say how sad it is that our world has gone so far from him and God. So very true. But we need to personalize that comment and each of us ask it as a question of ourselves. How close are we to Christ?
How close am I to Christ?
How close are you to Christ?

Judah wrote:

Michelle wrote: {...clip...}It makes me angry that as humans we do this to each other. It does though demonstrate that the only true leader that can possibly ever bring a world of peace is to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. How sad that our world has gone so far from him and God.

I'm afraid that none of our following of the teachings of Jesus Christ, not of our own accord, will ever bring about a world of peace.
As you remarked further on...

Michelle wrote:What I couldn't understand was that some of the perpetrators were actually born again Christians.

...humans, being sinners, are not going to achieve this world of peace.

Pretty much all of us fail regardless of how hard we try. We are all sinners, even the very best saints among us. Following teachings alone is no guarantee.

It is not until the work of the Holy Spirit within those professing a saving faith in Christ is finished, and we are made perfect in Him, will this situation ever happen. Then the meek (humble) shall inherit the earth.

Those of us who are Christians are working towards that day now, by having accepted His invitation to this unique relationship with Him. When the day comes that we see Him face-to-face, we believe we will be made perfect. He works within us, those who love Him. While we still fall well short of the mark at present, the more we all stop obstructing His work within us, the sooner the day will come that all this evil and bloodshed will end.

My point is this, that it is not just in following the teachings of Christ, but by allowing Him to work in one's own heart such that the old sinful self dies and a completely new spiritual self in Him lives, that His real work is done - and will bring an end to the evil we see now.

You say how sad it is that our world has gone so far from him and God. So very true. But we need to personalize that comment and each of us ask it as a question of ourselves. How close are we to Christ?
How close am I to Christ?
How close are you to Christ?

Thank you, Judah, I am thoroughly convicted now.

Michelle wrote:Thanks for your comments. I am saddened that you saw so many atrocities. It makes me angry that as humans we do this to each other. It does though demonstrate that the only true leader that can possibly ever bring a world of peace is to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. How sad that our world has gone so far from him and God.

I absolutely do condemn terrorism. And you are right about AI. They should put their money where their mouth is. I joined them but sometimes feel quite disillusioned with their lack of response to acts of terrorism and how they don't make a stand. By the way I am not an active member but contribute financially.

On a personal level I will speak up against any form of injustice done to a person. I have stood up and condemned the events in East Timor, in Rwanda, the Bosnian war, Indonesia, Aboriginal injustice and so on. Why? Because someone once said 'bad things happen when good people do nothing.' So maybe that is why I come across so strong at times. Over the years I have like you, seen some terrible things humans have done to each other. I went through many things myself, however I am referring to other people. What I couldn't understand was that some of the perpetrators were actually born again Christians. Anyway I guess that is something I will have to come to terms with.

Michelle,

I'm a registered Democrat, (although I must admit I don't vote that way all the time). My only beef with the more liberal Democrats is the abortion issue which I detest.. I guess you could call me a moderate then too like FFC.. Being from California, I'm also a firm environmentalist.. This confuses many atheists I guess..

Regardless, when it comes to defending the cross I will stand firmly with any Republican brother on any issue that I feel degrades Christ. As a Christian I will not allow it.. When it comes to Christ I believe he doesn't nessarily fly under a certain political flag. A brother in Christ is a brother in Christ..

For myself, I have been outspoken against the Iraqi war many moons ago (more importantly how it was handled). Having lived in a Muslim country before, anyone could see what a problem it would all pose for us. I do believe however that the war in Afganistan is justified... But as for Iraq now, unfortunately I believe it is too late now to just simply walk away from it. It's a mistake that we will have to live with now. But Democrats make mistakes too.. Know what I mean?

I think I understand your claim... But I think you need to understand just because someone says that they are a born again Christian that doesn't automatically mean that they are one in front of God. When it comes to condemnation however, I think we should leave that up to God. It's not for us to judge..

As for someone who claims they are Christian, the Bible makes it pretty clear that we shall know them by their fruits.. But then again, people's fruits can change over time..

If you claim that you speak up against any form of injustice done to a person I think that is great.. But let us find what those injustices really are first..

Go in peace..

G -

FFC wrote:Thank you, Judah, I am thoroughly convicted now.

FFC, er... join the club.
I often convict myself as well (the Holy Spirit in me, that is).

Gman wrote:

Michelle wrote:Thanks for your comments. I am saddened that you saw so many atrocities. It makes me angry that as humans we do this to each other. It does though demonstrate that the only true leader that can possibly ever bring a world of peace is to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. How sad that our world has gone so far from him and God.

I absolutely do condemn terrorism. And you are right about AI. They should put their money where their mouth is. I joined them but sometimes feel quite disillusioned with their lack of response to acts of terrorism and how they don't make a stand. By the way I am not an active member but contribute financially.

On a personal level I will speak up against any form of injustice done to a person. I have stood up and condemned the events in East Timor, in Rwanda, the Bosnian war, Indonesia, Aboriginal injustice and so on. Why? Because someone once said 'bad things happen when good people do nothing.' So maybe that is why I come across so strong at times. Over the years I have like you, seen some terrible things humans have done to each other. I went through many things myself, however I am referring to other people. What I couldn't understand was that some of the perpetrators were actually born again Christians. Anyway I guess that is something I will have to come to terms with.

Michelle,

I'm a registered Democrat, (although I must admit I don't vote that way all the time). My only beef with the more liberal Democrats is the abortion issue which I detest.. I guess you could call me a moderate then too like FFC.. Being from California, I'm also a firm environmentalist.. This confuses many atheists I guess..

Regardless, when it comes to defending the cross I will stand firmly with any Republican brother on any issue that I feel degrades Christ. As a Christian I will not allow it.. When it comes to Christ I believe he doesn't nessarily fly under a certain political flag. A brother in Christ is a brother in Christ..

For myself, I have been outspoken against the Iraqi war many moons ago (more importantly how it was handled). Having lived in a Muslim country before, anyone could see what a problem it would all pose for us. I do believe however that the war in Afganistan is justified... But as for Iraq now, unfortunately I believe it is too late now to just simply walk away from it. It's a mistake that we will have to live with now. But Democrats make mistakes too.. Know what I mean?

I think I understand your claim... But I think you need to understand just because someone says that they are a born again Christian that doesn't automatically mean that they are one in front of God. When it comes to condemnation however, I think we should leave that up to God. It's not for us to judge..

As for someone who claims they are Christian, the Bible makes it pretty clear that we shall know them by their fruits.. But then again, people's fruits can change over time..

If you claim that you speak up against any form of injustice done to a person I think that is great.. But let us find what those injustices really are first..

Go in peace..

G -

Thanks for what you have written. It is helping me put a lot of things into perspective. Someone said to me once that very same thing about knowing them by their fruit. I wonder, is it possible that there are people out there who claim to be Christians just for their own insidious purposes?

I just realised that was a really stupid thing to say. My ex did just that.


As for what you were saying in regards to politics, I find the political process in the US very intriguing. It is so different than in Australia. For a start how you vote in the US is different than how we do here. I am involved with a political campaign at the moment as there is an election looming. Actually make that two as we have the State election in November and the Federal sometime next year.

I just learnt tonight that I am going to another town in a few days. It has been one town after another, little sleep, not much time to eat (I ate my first meal in two days) so once this election is over I will be glad. Oh, as well I have uni exams coming up so I am going to be flat out.

I am trying to stay as busy as I possibly can so I can forget that I have a really bad tooth ache. Thanks mainly to our wonderful health system! I have been waiting to see a dentist for nearly three years and still have more time to wait. And to think it was for a very mild filling that didn't need any anaesthetic too. Because I have waited so long the tooth and the one beside that as well as the one beside that has become infected.

Still one thing is certain there wont be any Vampires around with all the garlic I have been having to help fight the infection!