Byblos wrote:August,
In your view, how do we reconcile Adam and Eve having the free will to decide whether or not to succumb to temptation and doom humanity in the process (or not), with the fact that God's plan of salvation was not dependent on that choice? Or are you saying that it was? This is a very confusing area for me.
Everyone, please remember that my response here is a cursory treatment of the topic. One can only say so much in a post. Please let me have the opportunity to clarify my statements with more detail afore you flame me. (Not that anyone has, but this is a tricky subject, which takes a bit of understanding)
Byblos,
It is an astute question, and one that gets to the implications of what I said. We have to be careful when we talk about free will here. Once again, free will does not mean a neutral free will, but a will that obeys its nature. One of the points that I tried to get across was that the nature of the first couple's wills was that it was unaware of evil. They had a will that was subject only to a "good" nature, up to the point of the temptation.
When tempted by the devil, the human part of the will, that which governs emotions and desires, for the first time experienced a conflict. The conflict was not brought about by the humans themselves, but by the entry of the devil. The human nature was polluted by obeying the devil. By playing to the human weakness of desire, the devil managed to convince them to sin. He created that conflict, he put a choice before them. That choice was obviously absent before.
He took away their innocence. By succumbing to that weakness, fueled by a promise from the devil, the eating of the fruit changed human nature forever. Yes, Eve had a freedom to choose, and her desires overrode her best judgment, as did Adams. They knew of the consequences, yet they irrationally succumbed.
I'm not sure what you mean by whether Gods plan for salvation was dependent on that or not? God, being omnipotent, had to know that it was going to happen. Why did God not stop it from happening? That would have meant that God had to change the way in which He had created humans, with emotions, desires and a will, after His own likeness. It would have been an intervention in His plan for His creation that changed the whole dynamic of His commandment to love Him.
It is important to remember the contrasts here. How can God call for obedience when there is not the possibility for disobedience? How can He command humans to love Him, when there is not the possibility of hate? That is the way God made us, that we can choose to accept His grace or not. That was the same choice Adam had, later on in Genesis. God gave him the opportunity to repent, and he did not, so he was punished.
Let's try to look at this from the reverse: Jesus was born out of Adam, in a very specific genalogy that promised it throughout Biblical history. Jesus is called the second Adam. (1Co 15:45). Does that not tell us that Jesus was planned all the time? God knows that we are weak, and that is why He gives us a new birth through His grace. He sends His Spirit to help us, after we repent and believe, so that we have a personal teacher and guide that helps us get stronger, so that we may resist the temptations.
But we know that we still sin, despite Gods efforts for us not to. He also knows that He created us that way so that we can truly love and obey Him. That is why, in His glorious grace, He sent His son, not to stop us from sinning, but to stop us from having to be punished for it. I bleive He planned that, and the proof is all through Scripture. Even in the OT, people were not saved by anything else but Gods grace giving them faith.
If this does not answer the question, let me know.
.