Evidence for God from Science

Judah,

I think we're pretty much on the same page. I'm perhaps more careful than most to launch into generalities.

As I've stated before, I see this as a positive sign, but not a change in direction. First steps however are to be encouraged and recognized.

I'm alarmed in general, with how ignorant many are in the west of what is actually going on and what is at stake.

Bart

Aviatrix wrote:Judah... I don't know what to tell you. Show me a bonafide Islamic scholar who says that 2:256 was abrogated... I dare ya. Arab Christians don't count. Converts out of Islam don't count.

So the only opinion that counts is the one that agrees with you? You may be right about Arab Christians who are not learned or well versed enough in Qur'anic things but why not consider converts? Could the reason for their conversion be that they were so disillusioned by what they were taught and what they actually discovered becoming Islamic theologians? In fact, those are precisely the ones we (and you for that matter) need to pay attention to the most because they speak from deep knowledge and experience. They dare say what others will not or cannot utter.

Aviatrix wrote:I don't think I will understand why it is that people think that Muslims are trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the world,

Because the voices of extremism are telling us they have a wool to pull over our eyes and yours. It's always been evident, more so in the last 10 years.

Aviatrix wrote: why we're all part of some great conspiracy. Sounds like paranoia.

No paranoia, just facing reality. The reality is that Islamic extremism is propagating such conspiracy as fact. They're the ones responsible for most acts of terrorism, should we not take them seriously?

Aviatrix wrote: Nor do I think I'll ever understand why people keep repeating the same lies (they are flat out lies) about Islam.

They're not lies if they're being practiced and perpetuated by your own people. Rain those in then correct misunderstanding wrt conspiracy theories.

Aviatrix wrote:Nor do I understand why a Muslim state is so terrifying.

Aviatrix, I really mean no disrespect but do you live in a bubble? When a Muslim nation is attempting to get nuclear power and the very head of that same nation declares that Israel should be wiped off the map, do you really not see the terrifying results of such a prospect?

Aviatrix wrote:I mean, I'm not tuned into that same propaganda machine, I guess. There is no Muslim state, not anywhere in the world.

I will assume you're being sarcastic .

Aviatrix wrote: It's not that Muslims are encroaching on the West trying to take it over. They're leaving their homes and moving here because their own governments are so backwards and corrupt! Trying to take over... yeah right...

It's not the vast majority of Muslims, those have no voice, either in their homeland (where they're oppressed in the name of religion) or in the West (where they don't assimilate). It is the minority extremists who are drowning any voice of moderation by their heinous actions. It is the ideology of hate they put forth that we're most concerned about.

Aviatrix wrote:most Muslims that move here could care less about politics. We have to practically force them to just register to vote (which they should do, as citizens: inform themselves of the laws, the candidates, and vote.)

Exactly. All the while the voices of extremism are running rampant in your communities, recruiting young and old for the cause. They quote none other than the Qur'an in support of their ideology. Who is correcting them? Who is telling them 'wait a minute! You've got it all wrong, the Qur'an doesn't say that, it says this. You can't do as you misunderstand the verse to be abrogated, it isn't.' Yes, I know there are moderate Muslims who do try to counter the fundamentalist movement but with not nearly enough force or numbers to make any meaningful impact.

Aviatrix wrote:I think similar claims being made against Islam today were made as Catholics began "infesting" the country... but they fit in, the country adapted and improved from it.

Yes, but those anti-movements were strongest when they began and dissipated over time. The opposite is occurring with fundamentalist Islam; it's growing bigger, stronger, and more extreme with the passage of time. If we as Christians learned from our mistakes and corrected them, why do you need to make the same mistakes and correct them over time? Why can't you learn from history and correct them now, before countless people suffer on all sides?

Aviatrix wrote:My favorite scholar is Sheikh Hamza Yusuf, an American convert to Islam. He's made a video presentation that is pretty excellent (imo) in response to the pope, that is informed and fair. I'd like to post it if anyone's interested.

The hardest (most troubling) thing for me to read in Judah's posts is that he actually thinks he knows more about Islam than the Muslim scholars, and he's going to insist that they're outrightly lying. When people believe this, how is there ever going to be resolution?

Like Bart said, Judah never professed to know more about Islam than Muslim scholars. Quite the opposite, most if not all of her source are from Islamic scholars (converts or otherwise). Direct from the horse's mouth so-to-speak.

I wish and pray that every Muslim thinks and acts the way you do, Aviatrix. I sincerely hope the version of Islam you understand and practice becomes the dominant force (bad choice of words, I know) in the Islamic world. The sad reality, however, is that extremism is gaining ground and militant Islam is taking over and they use the Qur'an as their justification. How would you have us respond?

Blessings,

John.

I wrote a long reply and then deleted it because it was kind of mean.

Judah wrote: I often think, when I read what you post, how much I wish most other Muslims believed as you do.

Actually, they do.

Bart wrote: Within a large group, it is not necessary for a majority to hold a radical course to affect or even determine the direction of a large group. ... Within large groups and communities there are (A,B)charismatic people who tend to arise and by virtue of their personal appeal, charisma and (C)capturing of the sentiment of the group they begin to put forth ideas, direction or values which begin to be accepted or listened to within the group.

Observe exhibits A,B: Sayyed Qutb, Ayman al-Zawahiri
Observe exhibit C: The Egyptian Brotherhood

I can't believe you think people embrace Wahhabi Islam. The thought baffles me. There is a Salafi movement, but it's not all wicked like you seem to think. Actually, they hate what is called bid'ah, or innovation. Saudi Arabia is full of bid'ah. (Why did the Wahhabi win the auction? He was the biggest bid'ah!)

Bart wrote:...the poison of anti-semitism fanned by the Palestian conflict...

Please don't go there, unless you've been there.

Bart wrote: This is a centuries old movement that is moving toward its logical conclusion based upon beliefs rooted in the Quran which is a very different document than the Bible in terms of the values it promotes.

Most Muslims... in fact... all of them... that I know... consider that Islam is actually regressing, not progressing. That things are getting worse, because people are leaving the values of the Qur'an. This is obvious in the loose sexual morals, lack of modesty, corrupt government, obscene desire for wealth, violence, and hatred visible in the Muslim world. If they'd stick to the Qur'an, they'd all be better off and you'd see them like the Muslims at the mosque... the ones who are kind to the elderly, who take care of their parents, men who support and take care of their families, women who try to raise strong morally guided children, people who are nice to their neighbors, love their families, participate in the community, who are calm, patient, generous, reliable, and honest.

Gman, if you had more love for Muslims perhaps you wouldn't be so afraid of them.

I'm going to be brief about this... Hopefully...

I would commend and support any Muslim to pray or teach for peace... At this point anything will do... It does appear that some are trying to make an effort and I think they need to be praised for such actions...

When I see people flipping off or making jokes about Muslims in malls, I as a Christian am repulsed by this.. I would like to take such ignorant people and slam them against the wall..

In a nutshell, however, here is my confusion...

While I can say such things, I also have to put my foot down to injustices..

Here is the one verse we are talking about...

Surah 2:256 There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.

Ok, fine there is no compulsion in religion... But then I find a verse that justifies the beating of your wife if she gets out of line? (notice that we are not on a battlefield now..)

Surah 4:34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, beat them; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means: For Allah is Most High, great.

I'm sorry... I cannot and will not allow this.. For a man to take his physical advantage over a woman (under any condition) is EXTREMELY repulsive to me... Even if it means beating them with a toothbrush. This is a moral issue... Period.

I've seen women with my own two eyes beaten until they were bleeding. If I ever find a man beating a woman or their wife, then they are going to have to go through me... Because I will attack them.

Why am I so hot about this? My mother use to be a director for the League of Woman Voters. She has shown me the way on this as a child and I commend her for that.. I also fund charities for abused women... My mother turned me into her bulldog in a way. But it is an issue I don't take lightly...

I'm sorry but I don't know how to address the issue.. I feel we need to be sympathetic to Muslims, but on the other hand I will fight for what I believe are moral issues...

Again, I'm confused...

I feel the need to reply to Byblos.

The reason I won't accept converts out of Islam is because I am expecting you to cite a few specific people who I earnestly believe are liars. (Sorry.) To put it a nice way, just because they converted from Islam, the ones who actually did, doesn't mean they had a good understanding of Islam in the first place. Secondly, the ones who claim to have a good understanding, like the one who claims he was a professor at Al-Azhar perhaps, I don't want to be here to have to attack a man's story when he is not here to defend himself (because I don't believe these stories.) The best way to become a best-seller these days is to apostate from Islam and write a book about how evil it is. Seriously. So there is a growing amount of literature to this end, because people just eat it up.

If Islamic sources say something, then the Muslims would believe it, and the Muslims would know. I don't think that you would trust what Muslim scholars say about Christian doctrine or trust their interpretations of the Bible for example, so why should I accept non-Muslims who want to interpret Islam? I'm just asking for fairness, here.

Byblos wrote: It's not the vast majority of Muslims, those have no voice, either in their homeland (where they're oppressed in the name of religion) or in the West (where they don't assimilate). It is the minority extremists who are drowning any voice of moderation by their heinous actions. It is the ideology of hate they put forth that we're most concerned about.

So I actually agree with you, here. I would like to point out that more Muslims are dying from these crazies than non-Muslims, and so Muslims are concerned as well.

I wish and pray that every Muslim thinks and acts the way you do, Aviatrix. I sincerely hope the version of Islam you understand and practice becomes the dominant force (bad choice of words, I know) in the Islamic world. The sad reality, however, is that extremism is gaining ground and militant Islam is taking over and they use the Qur'an as their justification. How would you have us respond?

Most Muslims do think and act the way I do, astonishing though that may sound. And this "version" of Islam is predominant, however, militant Islam is gaining ground. Far from taking over, but this action is, I believe, a result of military action in the Muslim world. I don't want to see militant Islam, I really don't. But there is a reason it is gaining ground... I hope you can see what it is.

I did something that I wish I had never done. It made such an unbearable impact on me and has become the substance of nightmares, those all too real for comfort. It was just one unwitting mouse click then a distraction that took my eyes away for just a moment. When I looked up I saw in full progress a video clip of an Islamic infidel beheading. A beheading - the neck of a real alive person being sawn right through with all the writhing and the gore. I wont go on, and nor did the video because I stopped it right away. But not fast enough for the grissly scene to have a deep and shocking effect on me as the head came off. This was something that had happened for real. It is something that keeps happening - for real. It is something that simply must be made to stop.

These are two of the verses quoted from the Qur'an to support such hideous acts:
Surah 8:12 “When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger. 13 That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment,”
Surah 7:4 “Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens…”

Aviatrix, I agree with Byblos - you are living in a bubble. You have your eyes closed and simply do not want to see. It is too horrible for you to see the atrocities done in the name of Allah and to believe that their justification comes from the Qur'an. Until you open your eyes and look, you will continue to stay in your bubble.

If I am to say much more here, I will be accused of attacking Islam which is assumed wrong in the eyes of political correctness. The problem is, Aviatrix, that these things really happen. They are the truth, the reality. They are our world events. I am exposing the Islam that underlies them. Yes, all of these atrocities go on with their perpetrators' jubilant cries of words that in English say "Allah is great!" They are done in his name, justified by what is written in the Qur'an. The Qur'an is laced with these verses of killing, mutilation, hatred for non-believers. If you say they are warrior verses only, those whom I am speaking of are using these surah to fight their jihad, their holy war. Open your eyes and see what I am talking about.

Islam terror attacks in past 4 months

I wish that all of this was just a fantasy, nothing more. Instead these are undeniable facts - they are the reality despite claims that the Qur'an does not inspire and command them.

1 John 2: 9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. 11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.

Knowing the true facts regarding Islam does not have to make a person a hater of Muslims. It is very important not to fall into that trap, hating the person because one does not share the same beliefs and has an objection, no matter how strong, to those beliefs. I am dismayed by what I read in the Qur'an - dismayed and frustrated by the misrepresentation of Judeo-Christian scriptures, the distortions of our scriptures, and the amount of hatred and violence I find there. That is not the kind of world that I want to live in, and not the kind of way that I want to behave towards others myself. I absolutely do not hate Muslims - the people themselves - and I would far rather that they open their minds, hearts and souls to the truth and love of the real Jesus, not 'Isa as they believe Him to be, and come to know for themselves that unlike their god Allah, our God Yahweh is both righteous and full of immeasurable love for us as His beloved children.

Christians are absolutely not taught in their scriptures to hate other people, to mutilate and murder them, to make them convert, to slay them if they don't.

Matthew 5: 43 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Aviatrix wrote: The reason I won't accept converts out of Islam is because I am expecting you to cite a few specific people who I earnestly believe are liars. (Sorry.) To put it a nice way, just because they converted from Islam, the ones who actually did, doesn't mean they had a good understanding of Islam in the first place. Secondly, the ones who claim to have a good understanding, like the one who claims he was a professor at Al-Azhar perhaps, I don't want to be here to have to attack a man's story when he is not here to defend himself (because I don't believe these stories.) The best way to become a best-seller these days is to apostate from Islam and write a book about how evil it is. Seriously. So there is a growing amount of literature to this end, because people just eat it up.

And this supports your bubble, Aviatrix. As long as you believe these people are liars, you will stay blind to the reality of what is going on. The professor from Al-Azhar, Dr Mark Gabriel, has substantial credentials and writes of his own experience. As I have said on a previous thread, I will not get into a game-play of sources. You do not accept as truth of anything that I write, then you have closed your mind just as surely as you think I have closed mine. But the experience of these writers, and the things they say actually mirror exactly the reality of what is happening. You are speaking of peaceful Muslims, of Islam that is not being practised in the same way. I hear you saying that the kind of militant Islam I speak of is abhorrent to you too. I am saying that it is indeed supported by the Qur'an. You seem to be saying that it is not. There we must totally disagree.

I believe we are getting away from the original topic, which was the content of the letter written to Pope Benedict.

The expression of hope that something good will come from dialogue was shared by both Bart and myself - and I am sure with many others on this board.

I have shared my mixed reaction to the fact of that letter and explained my concerns. I do not believe they need any more explanation. I will state again, I sincerely hope that good will come of this and that the 38 signatories to that letter can bring about a moderate peaceful Islam, and particularly importantly, one that does not overwhelm and consume our own western civilization. World wide submission to Allah is not the kind of peace that Christians seek, but perhaps the first step has been taken to stopping the carnage going on at present.

I have unpleasant words to say.

It is too horrible for you to see the atrocities done in the name of Allah and to believe that their justification comes from the Qur'an.

Oh trust, me, I've seen them. Have you seen the atrocities which sparked them? Do I need to elaborate? I don't want to. The girl whose family was killed, raped, body burned... by whom? Wouldn't that piss you off?

I know what I see, and you don't know what you see. Just because something is done in the name of Allah doesn't mean that it's right, even by Allah. Don't you see that? Don't you see how wicked it is? Don't you see how different it is from Islam? No, you don't see, you buy into their hype that the Qur'an allows that kind of... this is a G-rated site. I'm torn apart twice here, but that you don't see. First, that the evil is done. That is the first sadness. Whatever they claim the reasons are, I know their reasons, pure hatred. Whatever they claim their justification, I know it's not true. I know that they are twisting the Qur'an, but you don't know that. And then you think that what they do is okay in Islam? That is the second sadness.

That they distort my religion to endorse their hatred, that is sad.

And that you believe them...

I'm crying.

When will you people learn?

Islam is not about hatred. The Qur'an is not about hatred.

O Allah! These unjust acts are a crime against the religion of your Prophet (peace be upon him), who You sent with mercy. They are a transgression against Your servants. O Allah! Protect the Muslims from these crimes. Guide them by their forelocks to what is right. Save them from corruption. Give them insight and clear vision so that they will not love that which You despise, nor despise that which You love. Bestow upon them mercy, peace, and prosperity. Amîn.


COLD BLOODED MURDER!!

Aviatrix wrote:I have unpleasant words to say.

It is too horrible for you to see the atrocities done in the name of Allah and to believe that their justification comes from the Qur'an.

Oh trust, me, I've seen them. Have you seen the atrocities which sparked them? Do I need to elaborate? I don't want to. The girl whose family was killed, raped, body burned... by whom? Wouldn't that piss you off?

I know what I see, and you don't know what you see. Just because something is done in the name of Allah doesn't mean that it's right, even by Allah. Don't you see that? Don't you see how wicked it is? Don't you see how different it is from Islam? No, you don't see, you buy into their hype that the Qur'an allows that kind of... this is a G-rated site. I'm torn apart twice here, but that you don't see. First, that the evil is done. That is the first sadness. Whatever they claim the reasons are, I know their reasons, pure hatred. Whatever they claim their justification, I know it's not true. I know that they are twisting the Qur'an, but you don't know that. And then you think that what they do is okay in Islam? That is the second sadness.

That they distort my religion to endorse their hatred, that is sad.

And that you believe them...

I'm crying.

When will you people learn?

Aviatrix,

I'm sorry that you've been exposed to the harsh realities of how non-Muslims perceive Islam. You may be right that Islam is a religion of peace and you may be right that the few militant Muslims are distorting the Qu'ran and what it says and you also may be right that it is sad that we believe them. However, what choice do we have, Aviatrix? That's the kind of Islam those few militants are projecting onto the world stage. That's the kind of Islam they say they are practicing. That's the version of Islam they claim gives them not just the right, but also the authority from Allah, to commit the atrocities they are committing. It's all done and justified in the name of Islam and in the name of Allah as they see it is evident in the Qur'an. What are we to believe, Aviatrix? More importantly, who are we to believe? Why should we believe you when they are the ones calling you a liar? They are the ones making a mockery out of the type of religion you hold dear yet they profess to be right. Unfortunately, your version of a peaceful Islam is not the one making headlines these days. Unless and until that happens, we have no choice but to believe the ones that are senselessly killing and spreading mayhem in the name of Allah, Islam, the Qur'an and in the name of their version of jihad.

Just curious my friend, does a person who is willing to behead a man for PR strike you as honest? Reasonable? The sort of person you would trust? I mean, he doesn't strike me that way, and I wouldn't trust him. Why do you?

But you don't have to believe me.

I challenge you and everyone on this board in the spirit of pluralism to visit a mosque and listen to what the imam says on Friday to the congregation. I dare you. Anywhere in this country. (Not NOI though, that's not even Islam.) But I guarantee you that God willing you'll find a community of Muslims who agree with me and not with the crazies. I think if you want to be an intelligent and informed person, you shouldn't let people spoonfeed you information. Not me or anyone.

Aviatrix wrote:Just curious my friend, does a person who is willing to behead a man for PR strike you as honest? Reasonable? The sort of person you would trust? I mean, he doesn't strike me that way, and I wouldn't trust him. Why do you?

But you don't have to believe me.

I challenge you and everyone on this board in the spirit of pluralism to visit a mosque and listen to what the imam says on Friday to the congregation. I dare you. Anywhere in this country. (Not NOI though, that's not even Islam.) But I guarantee you that God willing you'll find a community of Muslims who agree with me and not with the crazies. I think if you want to be an intelligent and informed person, you shouldn't let people spoonfeed you information. Not me or anyone.

I think you're seeing Islam as practised in the US as representative of the rest of the world.

What do you believe the observation would be in a Mosque in Iran, Saudi Arabia or even Paris?

Mm-hmm.

The USA. The UK. Australia. Canada. In these places you will find exactly the same inshallah.

In Iran? Well let me tell you what, Iran... is messed up. Iran is one of the most secular countries in the region, and a good example of where the government has manipulated the religion for power. It's quite obvious that's what happened. Islamic revolution? Yeah, whatever. Islamic republic? Not even close. There is very little Islamic about Iran. Disregarding the differences in Sunni and Shi'a theology and tradition it's hard to explain this, but no (non-Persian) Muslim considers Iran a Muslim country nor representative of a majority of Muslims.

Saudi Arabia? In a mosque in Saudi, you'll find the same as here. Within the Saudi government? You'll find... can't say here. I have not personally been to Saudi Arabia, but a friend of mine has; she went on umrah. And she told me that on the streets the men are sick, but in the mosques all politeness and modesty. Not that the men change from one place to the next, but where you find the ones who are good, and bad. The family in Saudi is pulling a weird kind of Islam (the W-word) that they're trying to push on the people, but in general, the hearts of people in Saudi are the same as the rest of the world.

In Singapore? The same. Pakistan? The same. Afghanistan? Same. India? Yeah. The Gulf? Yeah. North Africa? Yeah. Palestine? Yeah. I'm being serious here, that believe it or not the Muslims around the world aren't so split as you might think. In general they agree, and in general they hate this evil spreading in Islam. Because among the Muslims there is evil, but it is not Islam. This is the mistake that previous posters have made.

Addressing the issue of the effect of the moderate Muslim voice (those that hold to a more peaceful Islam) upon those who take a more militant position (the ones Aviatrix calls "crazies" - and they are certainly that!) Robert Spencer has these interesting comments to make.

Note to Aviatrix: Although you undoubtedly wont approve of Robert Spencer, I would still appreciate if you would read the following and make some comments, if you wish, as I think these issues are surely ones that will effect you too. Please note in particular the last 3 paragraphs.

...I have often been asked whether I really think it will do any good to discuss the actions of Muhammad that jihadists use to justify violence. Doesn't that alienate moderate Muslims? I have responded that actually no Islamic reform can possibly take place without an acknowledgment that there are elements of the Qur'an and the example of Muhammad that need searching reevaluation: how can reformers succeed if no one admits that anything needs any reforming?
At the same time, however, Islamic reformers have a difficult road. They are often targeted as apostates by jihadists, and often physically threatened. Farzana Hassan Shahid, the new president of the Muslim Canadian Congress (MCC), is the latest victim of this phenomenon. After her liberal views on many Islamic hot-button issues became known, she began receiving death threats from Muslim hardliners who considered her positions evidence of her falling away from Islam. One called her the “younger sister of Satan.” Another accosted her husband at an Ontario mosque and demanded he “control his wife.”

Consequently, Farzana Hassan Shahid explained, “there is an underlying fear all the time...that uneasy feeling is part of my daily life. I have been declared an apostate twice, for opposing the Sharia [Islamic law]. We have asked [Ontario Attorney General] Michael Bryant to include or acknowledge accusation of blasphemy and apostasy into the existing hate laws so the public and legal frame work is sensitized to this issue.”
Hassan Shahid is not the first MCC official to be targeted by jihadists. Up until recently, Tarek Fatah was the MCC's communications director. But in August he abruptly resigned from his position, as well as from the group's board, severing all ties with the organization, although he had been one of its founders.

Fatah had excellent reasons to want to get out of the limelight. He had long been one of the most high-profile Muslim spokesmen in Canada: he was host of Muslim Chronicle, a current affairs TV-show focusing on Muslims in Canada. And as communications director of the Muslim Canadian Congress, he never shied away from controversy, endorsing positions on homosexual rights and other issues that deviated from Islamic orthodoxy — positions that Hassan Shahid has now echoed. Fatah even opposed the 2005 campaign to introduce arbitration courts based on Islamic law into Canada.

All that took courage. But instead of receiving congratulations from the Canadian Muslim community at large, Fatah became the target of an email campaign initiated by a Muslim student group, the Canadian Islamic Congress (CIC). The CIC claimed that Fatah didn't represent the majority of Canadian Muslims. Fatah commented: “This is as close as one can gets to issuing a death threat, as it places me as an apostate and blasphemer.”

And Fatah, like Hassan Shahid, has received outright death threats. He told the Toronto Police that he has been receiving death threats since 2003, but lately they're grown in number. And they're credible enough in content to move him to resign and duck out of sight.

Voices of moderation or reform within Islamic communities are at a distinct disadvantage because jihadists can so effectively use the Qur'an and Sunnah against them to lend credence to their charges of apostasy. Also, all the schools of Islamic law mandate that an apostate male must be killed -- a command rooted in the teachings of Muhammad, who said, “If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him'” (Bukhari 4.52.260). Thus a death threat can become an act of piety.

It is bitterly ironic that Western non-Muslim observers who know little or nothing of Islam assume that voices of liberalism and reform are the dominant mainstream within Islamic communities in the West and elsewhere, when the reality is that people like Hassan Shahid and Fatah are, despite their popularity among Westerners who like to pride themselves on their “tolerance,” only marginally influential among Muslims -- and are, above all, hunted.

Muslim reformers deserve all the support we can give them. But we should stop deluding ourselves into thinking they're the majority. And above all, government and law enforcement officials should stop building policy on the assumption that people like Farzana Hassan Shahid and Tarek Fatah are the majority.

Source

Aviatrix wrote: Just curious my friend, does a person who is willing to behead a man for PR strike you as honest? Reasonable? The sort of person you would trust? I mean, he doesn't strike me that way, and I wouldn't trust him. Why do you?

I would call him crazy, just like you do. I wouldn't want to be around him - no sane person would! And nor would I trust him, nor consider him reasonable because his form of reasoning would not likely match my own. But his actions are based on his beliefs, and they are actions shared by others whose beliefs are the same, based on their reading of the Qur'an. We cannot get away from that fact, Aviatrix. He obviously reads it quite differently from how you do, but he and his kind are the ones who threatens all of our lives, our culture and western civilization. There is simply no avoiding those facts - even although I agree with you that he is crazy! He and all his kind are acting on their interpretation of the Qur'an, and he is not just the odd chap escaped from a mental institution, but someone who is holding a view that is considered perfectly valid in the wider Islamic circles.

Aviatrix wrote:I challenge you and everyone on this board in the spirit of pluralism to visit a mosque and listen to what the imam says on Friday to the congregation. I dare you.

I have already done that - in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. I met many nice gentle people, no one whom I would call crazy like that murderer. But what I saw and heard was only a small exposure to Islam, like the tip of the iceberg, and reading widely on the subject is no more being "spoonfed information" than reading up on the Boeing factory and specifications of 747s or whatever. As you can see by the fact that I add many references, or links to sources (original sources as much as possible), I am not someone who doesn't have questions about what I read and researches the answers. It is just that you don't like the answers I find because they don't agree with your own.

But honestly, I don't want to get side tracked from the piece I quoted above because I think it is particularly germane to the original topic, and so I would like to go back to that for any comments from yourself, Aviatrix, and others who would have them to make.