Evidence for God from Science

Gman wrote:If you are Catholic it's practically free. If you are non-Catholic you must pay a tuition. I think the Catholic schools are the best when it comes to education. It sure beats the pants off the public system.

Quite true as far as education, although here in NYC (at least the schools I sent my kids to) tuition is the same for Catholics and non-Catholics. But I wouldn't discount the public school system altogether. It really depends on the location. Outside of NYC (Long Island, Westchester, etc.) public schools are some of the best in the state (private and public). Seminole county, Florida High Schools are rated top 3% of all 26,000+ public High Schools in the country.

As the parent of a teenager there are some things that are said these days that I really react to, and that get right up my nose. It is far too easy to point the finger at parents and blame them for the wrongdoings of their almost adult kids. One of the astounding things about such blame is that it does not account for the very strong influence of the peer group in the psycho-social development of young humans, and all of the factors outside the family that are simply not within control of parents. You can have the wisest and most caring parents showing a good level of involvement in their growing child's development, and still the child finds a need to follow the herd in matters of youth culture and yet may derail.

Some parents find a great deal of truth in the saying "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink". Some children are just not mainstream kids but have special needs arising from pscho-medical disorders affecting behaviour. These children can still have the best of parents but their behaviour causes problems with far-reaching results. And there will be absolutely exasperated good parents who have received no support but just more and more blame and obstacles in their attempts to do the best for their kids.

You can educate a child about dangers in society, provide healthy and appropriate responses matching their needs, nurture them in all good ways possible, but due to outside influences the immature teen may still get into trouble. There are so many hazards to navigate, and children cannot be wrapped in cottonwool and be totally protected from all forms of danger. Good parents do their very best - and still some of their kids will go astray.

There is also a new cultural phenomenon these days that social demographers are referring to as adulescence - the extra transition stage between adolescence and adulthood. The January 2005 edition of TIME magazine featured an article entitled “Meet the Twixters” and introduced this new trend of youngsters who are reluctant to grow up. I cannot find a copy of that article online (not without being a TIME magazine subscriber) but for those who are interested, more on this phenomenon can be found here.

Judah wrote:As the parent of a teenager there are some things that are said these days that I really react to, and that get right up my nose. It is far too easy to point the finger at parents and blame them for the wrongdoings of their almost adult kids. One of the astounding things about such blame is that it does not account for the very strong influence of the peer group in the psycho-social development of young humans, and all of the factors outside the family that are simply not within control of parents. You can have the wisest and most caring parents showing a good level of involvement in their growing child's development, and still the child finds a need to follow the herd in matters of youth culture and yet may derail.

Some parents find a great deal of truth in the saying "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink". Some children are just not mainstream kids but have special needs arising from pscho-medical disorders affecting behaviour. These children can still have the best of parents but their behaviour causes problems with far-reaching results. And there will be absolutely exasperated good parents who have received no support but just more and more blame and obstacles in their attempts to do the best for their kids.

You can educate a child about dangers in society, provide healthy and appropriate responses matching their needs, nurture them in all good ways possible, but due to outside influences the immature teen may still get into trouble. There are so many hazards to navigate, and children cannot be wrapped in cottonwool and be totally protected from all forms of danger. Good parents do their very best - and still some of their kids will go astray.

There is also a new cultural phenomenon these days that social demographers are referring to as adulescence - the extra transition stage between adolescence and adulthood. The January 2005 edition of TIME magazine featured an article entitled “Meet the Twixters” and introduced this new trend of youngsters who are reluctant to grow up. I cannot find a copy of that article online (not without being a TIME magazine subscriber) but for those who are interested, more on this phenomenon can be found here.

I agree with you, Judah. Although there are many factors in a childs life and upbringing that may or may not have negative effects on the choices they make or the actions they take, it is still up to the individual to do what they know is right inside...and we are all, no matter what age we are, responsible with what we do.

Maybe you are asking the wrong question anyway. The question is not "How to put kids straight." Kids have malleable minds. They are inclined, through evolution, to believe what they are told from a variety of sources, particularly parents. Some are more impressionable than others. Some people are confident, some people aren't confident. Some people jump on bandwagons, some people drive bandwagons. I think it's about time you let children get to an age where their minds are properly formed enough to make a decision as to whether they want to go to church or not. If you tell a child they will go to hell if they don't, that child will believe it because evolution has taught a child to believe its parents.


When you start asking "What's wrong with kids these days" and things like that, you are heading down the wrong path. Children are inherently inconsistent. They go through various stages in every possible sense. It is unfair to suggest that there is something wrong in a child asking "why should I go to church". This is a perfectly valid question, and what a smart child they are for thinking on such a level. When children question orders that they cannot see any reasoning in, they are exploring every avenue - they are learning. Asking why is an integral part of the stages of maturity every child goes through. Surpressing this is illogical. It is not fair to impose religion upon children from the day they are born, because they simply have no grounds to make a logical decision about it based on every side of the story. I think it is wrong to force religion upon those who do not know any better. It is no different from teaching your child the values of Marxism, for example. It is simply something that only more mature minds can understand fully, and so it is not acceptable to say there is something wrong with a child for questioning religion. By surpressing your child's questioning, you're surpressing your child's individuality.

David

pdavid wrote:Asking why is an integral part of the stages of maturity every child goes through. Surpressing this is illogical. It is not fair to impose religion upon children from the day they are born, because they simply have no grounds to make a logical decision about it based on every side of the story. I think it is wrong to force religion upon those who do not know any better. It is no different from teaching your child the values of Marxism, for example. It is simply something that only more mature minds can understand fully, and so it is not acceptable to say there is something wrong with a child for questioning religion. By surpressing your child's questioning, you're surpressing your child's individuality.

Who talked about 'suppressing a child's questioning'? We were talking about children who behave badly and have a wrong lifestyle -- not suppressing questioning. No one at the forum tells his kids merely, 'Believe or you'll go to hell.' Any responsible Christian parent will warn his child of the danger of Hell, but that's really not the only thing Christianity consists of...
Everyone has a worldview. For some, it is religious; for some, it is not. Neutrality does not exist. Of course you 'impose a religion' on your child, because religion determines morality and worldview. Do you think parents can talk about any subject with their kids, except the one which is (or should be) most important to them?
Children (especially very young ones) can't make a logical decision about anything, including the necessity of going to the bathroom. Parents teach them. It is not 'forcing religion'; it is responsible education. You already assume that neutrality is possible, even in a child's mind (which, as you just said, was extremely malleable -- is liberalism suddenly the only philosophy, or the only unbiased one, there is?).
Your statement that teaching Christianity is as moral as teaching Marxism is ridiculous and rather unsupported by history. Christianity does not and should not suppress questioning; Marxism put intellectuals in concentration camps.

We need to remember also that there are many wonderful kind caring kids out there too! There are mainly just a handful of real problem kids in all schools. The rest could quite easily be brought into line with the proper guidance. Just count how many well behaved kids there are in a class compared to how many regularly get out of line.

As for the foul mouthed ones from the Christian school, their behaviour doesn't surprise me in the least. In Australia we had an incident whereby an intellectually disabled girl was treated in a disgusting manner. Guess where some of the students came from? I have a friend who drives students from these same schools and he is disgusted with the language they use.

There are some parents who send their kids to these schools only because of the good Christian reputation and the hope that by sending them there they themselves will gain status in society. Some of these parents have bought very expensive gifts for the teachers working there just to keep on the good side of them. And have a guess just what sort of employment many of these parents are in? Definately not the lower end of the wage! These are greedy parents from some of the biggest corporations out. Thats right, the very same ones who own or work in the companies that focus on reaching the young persons market. Not only that but they will buy their little darlings anything they want when they want instead of saying no. Teaching them the difference between a need and a want is unheard of to them.

Just remember that like Puritan lad was saying it is the families and Churches. There are far too many families out there who are certainly lacking as a role model for their children. They have no proper focus, nor set of principles and values. Children are the product of their parents!

Michelle wrote:Children are the product of their parents!

...plus the influence of their peers, extended family, teachers, society, and a huge variety of components of their culture, own sort out experiences, own choices and decisions, and not to exclude their own inherited temperament and range of other personality characteristics.

There are wonderful dedicated parents who do their very best, and that can be superlative parenting as well, yet still their kids derail. Kids are not the product of their parents alone. That is far too simplistic.