Don wrote:The answer for me is found in a different translation of this verse that says the exact opposite. The New American Standard Bible renders it this way...
"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus
who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped."
Yes, I agree with that rendering as well. Jesus did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped because he already had it. You don't have to grasp something if you already have it.
Don wrote:I had referred to John 5:19 where it looks to me that Jesus denied that he was equal with God when he said that he could not not do a single thing on his own initiative but only what he beheld his Father doing.
This is called obedience, Don. Part of the office of Jesus the Son, and God in the flesh, was to be completely obedient to the Father. He in the form of a man exemplified what true obedience and humility looked like. I still fail to see the conflict.
The Father, The son, and the Holy spirit are three distinct persons that make up God. They all have their duties. I think the problem you are having is thinking that their is a conflict between humble obedience and equality. That may be a faulty human perception but in the Godhead it is a beautiful fact that is clearly seen in the whole scheme of things.
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom
Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?
"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God."
How do you understand the part of this verse where it says that we should think the same way Jesus thinks about the matter of being equal with God? Do you feel that we too should think it not robbery to be equal with God?
"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God."
How do you understand the part of this verse where it says that we should think the same way Jesus thinks about the matter of being equal with God? Do you feel that we too should think it not robbery to be equal with God?
Don
When you look at the original greek, what translates as "form" does not refer to shape or image, it means, "the very same material."
If Jesus was not God then the rest of the verses in the passage do not make sense. It was those things which he was due as God that He emptied himself of; not the attributes of his nature, but rather the things due to him that had to be set apart in order for him to assume Human form and make the sustitutionaty death and atonement that only He could provide.
By your translation or understanding, what exactly would it be that Jesus was emptying Himself of?
Bart
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender
What exactly would it be that Jesus was emptying Himself of?
My understanding is that prior to his coming to earth Jesus existed in spirit form - just as God the Father exists in spirit form. That's the form he emptied Himself in order to take on a lower form of life - a human form.
2.) When Jesus made the statement to the Pharisees, “I and My Father are one”, they took up stones to stone Him. Why? (See John 10:30-33)
3.) In the year that King Uzziah died, Isaiah saw the Lord (adonay), (Isaiah 6:1-10). Who was that? (See John 12:37-44).
4.) The name for God in Psalm 45:6 is (Elohiym). Why did the writer of Hebrews apply it to Christ (Hebrews 1:8)?
5.) The same is true with Psalms 68:17-18 (see Eph. 4:8-10).
6.) The same is true in Isaiah 40:3 (see Matthew 3:3)
7.) The name of God in Psalms 110:1 is (yehovah). Why did Matthew apply it to Christ (Matthew 22:44).
8.) The same is true with Jehovah of Hosts, the "stumbling block" of Isaiah 8:13-14, who is Christ (1 Peter 2:7-8).
9.) The Hebrew name for God in Psalms 102:25-27 is (el) (Greek - kurios). Why does the writer of Hebrews apply it to Christ (Hebrews 1:10-12)?
10.) Read Acts 20:28. Does God have blood?
These would be a good start.
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." - JOHN OWEN
What exactly would it be that Jesus was emptying Himself of?
My understanding is that prior to his coming to earth Jesus existed in spirit form - just as God the Father exists in spirit form. That's the form he emptied Himself in order to take on a lower form of life - a human form.
Don
Ahhhh are we Dabbling in Mormon Theology a bit here??
What exactly would it be that Jesus was emptying Himself of?
My understanding is that prior to his coming to earth Jesus existed in spirit form - just as God the Father exists in spirit form. That's the form he emptied Himself in order to take on a lower form of life - a human form.
Don
Now you've entered into a new dimension that requires a whole lot of explaining. So are you now saying that Jesus existed before he was born in some form that's equivalent to God's (as a spirit)?
If that's the case, we all know that God's spirit is also God and therefore, is eternal. So if Jesus had the same spiritual form then Jesus must be eternal as well. The inescapable conclusion is that either Jesus is God or we have 2 Gods (since they're both eternal).
Do you have any other explanation, Don?
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
Psalm 110:1: "The LORD (Yehovah) said to my Lord, 'Sit at my right hand...'"
You said and then asked... The name of God in Psalms 110:1 is (yehovah). Why did Matthew apply it to Christ (Matthew 22:44).
The answer is that he didn't apply it to Jesus. It was the "my Lord" that he applied to Jesus.
This gets a little tricky when it comes to what Jesus said about this verse in Matthew 22:41-46. So tricky in fact that even the Pharisees may not have been able to follow what Jesus was trying to explain to them. But I think I understand what he said.
First of all, my understanding is that "The LORD" (Yehovah) is the name of God the Father and that "my Lord" refers to David's future Lord, Jesus Christ.
Jesus asked the Pharisees what they thought about the Messiah (Christ). He asked them, "Whose son is he?" They knew that the true Messiah would be a descendant (or son) of King David. And so they correctly answered, "David's." Note: It isn't "The LORD" (Yehovah) who will come as the Messiah. It is David's Lord (my Lord) that will become the Messiah.
Jesus then asked, "How then is it that David calls (the future Messiah) 'Lord,' saying, 'The LORD said my (David's) Lord, "Sit at my right hand..."' In other words, Jesus was asking those Jews how was it possible that if the Messiah is going to be a son of David, then why would David refer to him as my Lord?
Here is the question Jesus asked those Pharisees: "If David calls him (the future Messiah) 'Lord' (or "my Lord"), how is he (the Messiah) his (David's) son?" When David will be resurrected in the future, Jesus will be his Lord.
I did say that this gets a bit tricky! The reaction to what he said was that, "Nobody was able to say a word in reply to Jesus, nor did anyone dare from that day on to question him further."
"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God."
How do you understand the part of this verse where it says that we should think the same way Jesus thinks about the matter of being equal with God? Do you feel that we too should think it not robbery to be equal with God?
Don
Don, My understanding of the whole passage is that it is addressing our duty to humility and servitude, which even Christ being God displayed.
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom
Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?
So are you now saying that Jesus existed before he was born in some form that's equivalent to God's (as a spirit)?
Yes. I believe that Jesus existed as a spirit before he was born on earth as a human.
You reasoned...
If that's the case, we all know that God's spirit is also God and therefore, is eternal. So if Jesus had the same spiritual form then Jesus must be eternal as well. The inescapable conclusion is that either Jesus is God or we have 2 Gods (since they're both eternal).
I'm not able to stretch what I said into what you just said. I understand that all of the angels also have spirit life. I don't assume that therefore they all must be eternal or that therefore they are all Gods.
So are you now saying that Jesus existed before he was born in some form that's equivalent to God's (as a spirit)?
Yes. I believe that Jesus existed as a spirit before he was born on earth as a human.
You reasoned...
If that's the case, we all know that God's spirit is also God and therefore, is eternal. So if Jesus had the same spiritual form then Jesus must be eternal as well. The inescapable conclusion is that either Jesus is God or we have 2 Gods (since they're both eternal).
I'm not able to stretch what I said into what you just said. I understand that all of the angels also have spirit life. I don't assume that therefore they all must be eternal or that therefore they are all Gods.
Don
You said Jesus was a spirit, the same way God is a spirit. Are you now saying that angels are spirits the same way God is a spirit? So in fact God sent an angel to be his son?
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
Don I am curious how you answer PL's question about the other verses he mentioned.
Specifically:
6.) The same is true in Isaiah 40:3 (see Matthew 3:3)
Especially when you consider the Hebrew word for Lord in Isaiah 40:3 is Yehovah. And it is pretty obvious that in Matthew 3 that John the Baptist is preparing the way for Jesus.
You said Jesus was a spirit, the same way God is a spirit. Are you now saying that angels are spirits the same way God is a spirit? So in fact God sent an angel to be his son?
My understanding is that angels exist in the same spirit form as God. Although, God (and now his Son) are the only ones who have immortal, self-sustaining spirit life. The angels must depend upon God's spirit to sustain their lives. Jesus doesn't.
I just think in terms of God sending his only-begotten son.
