Evidence for God from Science

I did the test, i only checked 3 of em... then i read and redid it an ya...i passed then. But isnt it true that "faith and belief" (or something similar) is too simplistic? Isnt it true that we should try to keep the 10 commandments (to name 1 i remember...)? or others? Isnt this part of love we offer to God? Or isnt it simplistic then? It looks like there is more than just belief and faith - as a basic thought no, but then this has several sub-parts - my opinion of course where i may be completely wrong... but thats the general opinion of many people i find.. or isnt it? WHo knows?!!

madscientist wrote:I did the test, i only checked 3 of em... then i read and redid it an ya...i passed then. But isnt it true that "faith and belief" (or something similar) is too simplistic? Isnt it true that we should try to keep the 10 commandments (to name 1 i remember...)? or others? Isnt this part of love we offer to God? Or isnt it simplistic then? It looks like there is more than just belief and faith - as a basic thought no, but then this has several sub-parts - my opinion of course where i may be completely wrong... but thats the general opinion of many people i find.. or isnt it? WHo knows?!!

Mad, the issue is what does one have to do to obtain salvation. The answer is nothing! Absolutely nothing. The reason is God and only God does it all. As a matter of fact the mere act of trying to add anything to what Christ has already accomplished on the cross is evidence that the person still does not understand what Grace is.

That does not mean that the things on the list are not to be done, or can not be beneficial for us in our walk with Him after God saves us. It just means that until God makes us new creatures all the effort in the world that we put forth is garbage! Even after we are saved we can not accomplish anything except by the grace and power of God. God will always get all of the glory...just because He is God, and only He is worthy!

Someone else told me that 'faith' as used by the early Christians meant 'faithfulness' -- that is, loyal commitment.

FFC wrote:
Mad, the issue is what does one have to do to obtain salvation. The answer is nothing! Absolutely nothing. The reason is God and only God does it all. As a matter of fact the mere act of trying to add anything to what Christ has already accomplished on the cross is evidence that the person still does not understand what Grace is.

Ok so does then thiniking that somethibng xtra is needed the works vs grace conflict? Ya ive seen it often that sacved by grace not by works - whihc i believe is grace not works - but isnt it true that to get that God's grace it is works - WILL and COMMITMENT that are needed (works) and then the infinitely good GOD saves us? Ya saved by grace - although isnt grace acihieved firstly by will which is part of works? If not then what is this "WORKS" people refer to in this discussion?

madscientist wrote:

FFC wrote:
Mad, the issue is what does one have to do to obtain salvation. The answer is nothing! Absolutely nothing. The reason is God and only God does it all. As a matter of fact the mere act of trying to add anything to what Christ has already accomplished on the cross is evidence that the person still does not understand what Grace is.

Ok so does then thiniking that somethibng xtra is needed the works vs grace conflict? Ya ive seen it often that sacved by grace not by works - whihc i believe is grace not works - but isnt it true that to get that God's grace it is works - WILL and COMMITMENT that are needed (works) and then the infinitely good GOD saves us? Ya saved by grace - although isnt grace acihieved firstly by will which is part of works? If not then what is this "WORKS" people refer to in this discussion?

Mad, when it comes right down to it the only thing "required" of us to obtain salvation is to believe what God has already done for us. I don't consider believing a work since it is God who wholly does the saving work...not us. As a matter of fact we couldn't even chose to believe unless God in His grace allowed us to believe. Works are what we do in obedience to God...not to obtain anything...otherwise God would not get all the glory. Does that make sense?

Jac3510 wrote:I don't see the need to add anything other than belief that Jesus told the truth in John 3:15, 16; 5:24; and 11:25-16 to salvation. Grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Everything else is a discipleship matter . . . but we've been through that debate before. When will people stop believing mere men and start believing Jesus?

What ever happened to John 3:3? When will people stop believing mere men and start believing Jesus? (When they are born of the Spirit).

"Behold, you trust in deceptive words to no avail. Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, make offerings to Baal, and go after other gods that you have not known, and then come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, 'We are delivered!'--only to go on doing all these abominations?” (Jeremiah 7:8-10)

"If the professed convert distinctly and deliberately declares that he knows the Lord's will but does not mean to attend to it, you are not to pamper his presumption, but it is your duty to assure him that he is not saved. Do not suppose that the Gospel is magnified or God glorified by going to the worldlings and telling them that they may be saved at this moment by simply accepting Christ as their Savior, while they are wedded to their idols, and their hearts are still in love with sin. If I do so I tell them a lie, pervert the Gospel, insult Christ, and turn the grace of God into lasciviousness." -C.H. SPURGEON

By adopting the terminology of “free grace” to cover their heresy, the corrupt schoolmen of No-Lordship salvation have sunken to playing word-games. The “free” grace they promote is not only free in the sense that it is unearned, but also in the sense of its worthlessness. It is not the biblical, effectual grace, that being “the grace of God” which “has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age”. (Titus 2:11-12) Rather, their grace is of a cheap and unfruitful sort, proceeding from some vain “belief” that they have contrived of their own virtuous resources. Their belief is less profitable than that of devils, for at least the belief of devils causes them to tremble (James 2:19). In their warped theology, this self-constructed “belief”, even if just for a fleeting moment, is all that is necessary to allow one into the Holy Jerusalem. Repentance, Holiness, and even the new birth are optional items to be filed under the important but non-critical category of “discipleship”. In No Lordship theology, the new creature may live in harmony with the old (2 Corinthians 5:17), and the fruits of the Spirit may be blended with the works of the flesh. (Galatians 5:19-24).

In contrast, the true religion, as given to us in the Holy Writ, gives serious warnings against such vain babblings. Christ was very clear that “…unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3). This is effectual, powerful, and life changing grace, bringing sinners out of the darkness and into the light (Ephesians 5:8). This grace requires more than just a mere profession or a taste of religion, for “If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.” (1 John 1:6). The ability to believe the truth is itself a gift from God (Acts 13:48; Phillipians 1:29), for “…no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.” (1 Corinthians 12:3). The new birth is most necessary, for His mercy saves us “…by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.” (Titus 3:5)

The new birth produces fruit, as God Himself promises “…I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.” (Ezekiel 36:27). We must be careful not to impugn true converts who may not be as far along in their sanctification as others, but those of the true faith will strive for obedience and “the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.” (Hebrews 12:14). This is discipleship, enabling true converts by the Spirit to persevere in the faith, as those who do not “were not of us” (1 John 2:19), for Jesus never knew them (Matthew 7:21-23). If God's Spirit is in us, we will obey His statutes. In contrast, those who claim to know Christ but do not obey His commandments are emphatically called liars (1 John 2:3-4). The true gospel not only proclaims the goodness and mercy of God, but the severity of his wrath toward apostates. The meat of the gospel is to “repent” (Matthew 3:2), to “bear the fruits worthy of repentance” (Matthew 3:8), thereby fleeing “from the wrath to come”. (Matthew 3:7). Sanctification is not an option. "…Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity." (2 Timothy 2:19). Jesus Christ is both your savior and your Lord, or He is neither.

Regarding Clement of Rome, it is true that he taught that we are “JUSTIFIED BY OUR WORKS, AND NOT OUR WORDS”, but this is not speaking of the means of justification, but rather the fruits (For no one actually taught justification by words). In this, he agrees with the inspired apostle James, who writes, “So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"--and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” (James 2:17-24) This is the problem with No Lordship, all words. The Bible has a word for such: “Hypocrite”. What it says about them isn't very nice.

Clement was clearly a proponent of Sola Fide, but unlike cheap-gracers, not a dead faith. He writes, “We are not justified through ourselves, neither through our own wisdom or understanding or piety or works we have done in holiness of heart, but through FAITH."

In the end, the promoters of "No Lordship" salvation may have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof. From such, turn away (2 Tim. 3:5).

Well that is what is necessary - FAITH, from what i ve seen in the thread.. But that not only requires "I believe God exists", but also doing works - or behaving in such manner. Or doesnt it? I thnk then this unclearness is more of a definitiuon problem - what exactly faith and belief mean - not just acknowldedging that God exists but also live such a life. So what is required for salvation - faith belief and live such a life, i.e. righteous life- from what i think from the previous posts... But isnt free will significant in belief/faith? It is Holy Spirit who does all the bvelief etc but isnt it the person's choice to believ or not? It is also true that withut God first giving the man ability to believe he would never believe - but it is also true that he nbeeds to choose. And although God is all powerful, omnisicnet and sovereign man still has free will to salvation. So why it is said it is more God who does all the salvation? its true that GOD'S GRACE is what savces us, but isnt it our chocies, i.e. free will that does the decision first?

The only thing that is necessary for salvation is the new birth (John 3:3). You must be born again and become a new creature. The other things, including faith, will be a result of this birth.

madscientist wrote:So why it is said it is more God who does all the salvation? its true that GOD'S GRACE is what savces us, but isnt it our chocies, i.e. free will that does the decision first?

Salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9). Man does have "free will", ie, he does what he wants to do. However, sinful man will never choose Jesus until the Holy Spirit first changes his heart. This is usually done by the preaching of the Word. Sinners don't need good advise. What they need is a new life, and only God can give that.

puritan lad wrote: Salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9). Man does have "free will", ie, he does what he wants to do. However, sinful man will never choose Jesus until the Holy Spirit first changes his heart. This is usually done by the preaching of the Word. Sinners don't need good advise. What they need is a new life, and only God can give that.

Ok, so true!! But isnt it man who has to say first and decide "I wanna follow God"? If no then we wouldnt and coulnt be righteously held responsible for doing "silly" choices... or could we? Because it is Hoily Spirit Who does the becoming more like God thing and so on but isnt it man first who has to have the WILL to want to go woth God and give up his sinful life?

madscientist wrote:Ok, so true!! But isnt it man who has to say first and decide "I wanna follow God"? If no then we wouldnt and coulnt be righteously held responsible for doing "silly" choices... or could we? Because it is Hoily Spirit Who does the becoming more like God thing and so on but isnt it man first who has to have the WILL to want to go woth God and give up his sinful life?

Not a good line of thought to take with a Calvinist, ms. They'll prattle on about Romans 9 and how we don't have the right to question God's sovereignty on this matter, even though when you press them on that, they'll appeal to other passages in support of that (incorrect) interpretation, as PL has done on this very board..

The entire fallacy in the line of thought he is presenting is that, for him, we are saved BY regeneration, and that regeneration is totally the work of God and not through faith. In fact, regeneration PRODUCES faith. This, however, is contrary to Scripture. because the Bible teachest that we are saved BY grace and THROUGH faith. Thus, grace is applied THROUGH faith.

In reality, Calvinism proper denies the Gospel, which PL pretty clearly demonstarted in his reply to me. I asked when people would start believing Jesus - he said that to be receive everlasting life we simply have to believe in Him for it. And PL denies that. I'm not saying that Calvinists themselves are not born again believers, although I'm sure many are not (same with any group). I am saying that their understanding of the Gospel is so flawed as to render it wrong (see our previous very long discussion in this matter, Is Calvinism a Heresy), and therefore their presentation of the Gospel to the lost will be skewed in such a way as to make it far more difficult for the person to come to saving faith. Thankfully, God can use an unclear Gospel well enough to bring a person to salvation, but that is in spite of the preacher and certainly not because of it.

Anyway, again, I don't want to get into all of this. This is just FYI. The line of thought you are picking up here will be extremely ineffective against PL, and in fact in plays right into his hands.

God bless

Here is a quote from Clement…

1Clem 32:4, “And so we, having been called through His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified through ourselves or through our own wisdom or understanding or piety or works which we wrought in holiness of heart, but through faith, whereby the Almighty God justified all men that have been from the beginning; to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.”

Jac, how do you term what happens after salvation and the role of sanctification?

The majority of early church writings from 80 — 180 AD were written for Christians in their local communities — assemblies and not for the unsaved. So were Paul's letters. There is something that comes after Salivation's entrance. It is unfortunate that many use the bible and early, early, writing of the Church to support a 'works saves' mentality. However, this is not the case here, nor is its PL's position either.

Now, PL and I disagree on some issues concerning predestination but on where one beliefs lead is another we would agree on. After being born again one needs Christian instruction or discipleship not to stay saved or be save but rather because one is saved. The very usage of the Greek words we translate as Faith and Believe mean commitment, fidelity, Loyalty — much like how these are developed during being married to your spouse. They involve a relationship built on love. It is learned in process of living and develops or refines or purifies love.

Much of the New Testament and the majority of early church writings from 80 — 180 AD speak of this type of love between the recipient of salvation by grace and God being instructed, taught, revealed how to love God and their fellow Christians within there local communities. Coming out of darkness — one needs to learn how to walk in the light during this earth bound sojourn and what it means as well as how one loves God and how this love is known.

When we learn to love God — sins that used to so easily enslave us drop off and have no hold on a person. A new sin is revealed and love slays that one too however long it takes. The Majority of people that use the term Lordship Salvation seem to understand this concept as I would say they love God. It is this love given by grace that causes one to say — Jesus is Lord. Much like the marriage faith I described earlier.

So I am confused by you're your terms Jac, People are saved by God's grace and those destined to live a longer life are changed by this grace to love God ever more deeply. Are you stating that this change does not occur or is not necessary for them being taught of the Lord because they just need intellectual ascent alone?

Matthew 13:17-23, “Many prophets and good people were eager to see what you see and to hear what you hear. But I tell you that they did not see or hear. 18 Now listen to the meaning of the story about the farmer: 19 the seeds that fell along the road are the people who hear the message about the kingdom, but don't understand it. Then the evil one comes and snatches the message from their hearts. 20 The seeds that fell on rocky ground are the people who gladly hear the message and accept it right away. 21 But they don't have deep roots, and they don't last very long. As soon as life gets hard or the message gets them in trouble, they give up. 22 The seeds that fell among the thorn bushes are also people who hear the message. But they start worrying about the needs of this life and are fooled by the desire to get rich. So the message gets choked out, and they never produce anything. 23 The seeds that fell on good ground are the people who hear and understand the message. They produce as much as a hundred or sixty or thirty times what was planted.” CEV

The seeds that fell on good ground are the people who hear and understand the message. If by hearing alone - does this manner of grace save? Or does hearing actually lead one unto something called 'living by faith': Commitment, loyalty, fidelity, hold on too, rely on, depend, surrender too, i.e. the result of agape love?

If one is taught that they need no root to tap into God's love, were they ever really saved? If one is shown that Christian commitment and love is unnecessary is it any wonder the message is snatched away from their hearts as evidenced by their conduct and manner of life? If one hears the wrong message they start worrying about the needs of this life and are duped to live without the Lord and fail to show any evidence of God's love shed aboard in their hearts.

But of those who hear and understand the message are saved. It is not by works but an act of God's love that circumcises the heart and like Abraham — they learn to walk by Faith in the truest sense of the word.

They have what is missing in so many today. They live it and reflect it to their families, friends, and church. They're learning to love God and each other day by tender day. Their acts do not save them nor even keep them saved — they simply love God and seek to reflect God's true nature and character on earth and are reminded how by constant Christian instruction. They understand.

Do we?

Jac there are way too many scriptures that instruct us to love God and others and how to live as Christians to ignore these and pass off as unnecessary, and I hope you are not saying that these truths are unnecessary. Yes people do misuse bible truths to teach a works based salvation and they should be confronted with their errors but remember that the bible itself does teach that there is more to faith other than intellectual ascent alone.

I did order the book you shared and will read it further as it may have more info on this matter than one can post


For those interested -Here is a Reference Link to early writings below:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/c ... thers.html
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I'll let you read Torrence for yourself with regard to Clement.

So I am confused by you're your terms Jac, People are saved by God's grace and those destined to live a longer life are changed by this grace to love God ever more deeply. Are you stating that this change does not occur or is not necessary for them being taught of the Lord because they just need intellectual ascent alone?

I covered this is great detail with ttoews in the Seven Reasons NOT To Ask Jesus Into Your Heart. Faith is belief. It's not belief +. It is the acknowledgement that something is true. If we are persuaded that Jesus Christ has given us everlasting life, then we have believed His promise and are justified by grace through faith (See John 3:16; 5:24; 6:47; 11:25-26; 20:31). Everything beyond that is a matter of discipleship. Change is NOT guaranteed in the life of the believer; nor is perseverance. There are warnings about severe discipline, both in this life and in the next (in terms of loss of rewards) throughout Scripture (i.e., Matt. 25:14-28; John 15:6; 1 Cor 3:10-14; 2 Cor 5:10; Heb 6:1-4; 10:26-31; 12:4-6).

You mentioned the parable of the soils. Again, I have dealt with that in depth in the Seven Reasons thread. The long story short is that the last three are saved. Only the first is lost. However, it is only the last one that is rewarded. The rest suffer discipline and loss, yet they themselves have everlasting life.

On a final note, you keep saying that "faith" refers to commitment, loyalty, and fidelty. That simply is not true. There is a different word for that. It is related, but different:

Pistis = "faith" It is a noun, and it means "belief" or "assurance."
Pisteuo = "believe" It is a verb, and it means "to believe," "to be persuaded something is true," or "to entrust."
Pistos = "Faithful" It is an adjective, and it means "loyal" or "commited." Substantivally, it means "faithfulness."

When the Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, it means that God counts us as righteous when we believe His Word to be true. When we consider Him faithful, we have believed. It has NOTHING to do with our own faithfulness.

Hope this helps,

God bless

Jac3510 wrote:I'll let you read Torrence for yourself with regard to Clement.

So I am confused by you're your terms Jac, People are saved by God's grace and those destined to live a longer life are changed by this grace to love God ever more deeply. Are you stating that this change does not occur or is not necessary for them being taught of the Lord because they just need intellectual ascent alone?

I covered this is great detail with ttoews in the Seven Reasons NOT To Ask Jesus Into Your Heart. Faith is belief. It's not belief +. It is the acknowledgement that something is true. If we are persuaded that Jesus Christ has given us everlasting life, then we have believed His promise and are justified by grace through faith (See John 3:16; 5:24; 6:47; 11:25-26; 20:31). Everything beyond that is a matter of discipleship. Change is NOT guaranteed in the life of the believer; nor is perseverance. There are warnings about severe discipline, both in this life and in the next (in terms of loss of rewards) throughout Scripture (i.e., Matt. 25:14-28; John 15:6; 1 Cor 3:10-14; 2 Cor 5:10; Heb 6:1-4; 10:26-31; 12:4-6).

You mentioned the parable of the soils. Again, I have dealt with that in depth in the Seven Reasons thread. The long story short is that the last three are saved. Only the first is lost. However, it is only the last one that is rewarded. The rest suffer discipline and loss, yet they themselves have everlasting life.

On a final note, you keep saying that "faith" refers to commitment, loyalty, and fidelty. That simply is not true. There is a different word for that. It is related, but different:

Pistis = "faith" It is a noun, and it means "belief" or "assurance."
Pisteuo = "believe" It is a verb, and it means "to believe," "to be persuaded something is true," or "to entrust."
Pistos = "Faithful" It is an adjective, and it means "loyal" or "commited." Substantivally, it means "faithfulness."

When the Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, it means that God counts us as righteous when we believe His Word to be true. When we consider Him faithful, we have believed. It has NOTHING to do with our own faithfulness.

Hope this helps,

God bless

Thanks, yes it does...

As I stated before like you did, "we are saved by grace through faith, it means that God counts us as righteous when we believe His Word to be true. When we consider Him faithful, we have believed. It has NOTHING to do with our own faithfulness."

Correct, but are Christians to sit idle after believing? It we were selling fire insurance we could save 99.9 % of the world with such a message. However we are not selling fire insurance nor promoting a new morality of ethics to be strived after but rather reality: the reality of Christ and his everlasting effects on those that believe.

There are marks of a Christian as we grow in the faith and mature. Belief produces a reality that can be measured in the life of one that believes. Some will and have died immature in the faith while others pass away full of years and mature in the Christian faith walking as Christ and shining his light wherever they lived.

These mature grace filled believers lived in the light and did not hide it under the basket of easy believism but rather learned to shine the light of God's nature and character summed up by his great love. This they did not hide. When you believe there should be a mark that sets you apart from the world: that's the reality.

All I ask anyone reading this is to realize that your faith is to grow and not stagnate. It is easy to believe but to live? That's another matter altogether. Is your belief in Christ leading you away from Christ or toward him? Don't get me wrong on this matter, if one truly believes his / her life will bear fruit of the fact and if not — then were they really saved or should I rather say — really believed?

Titus 2:11-15, “For God has revealed his grace for the salvation of all people. That grace instructs us to give up ungodly living and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in this world, as we wait for the blessed Day we hope for, when the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ will appear. He gave himself for us, to rescue us from all wickedness and to make us a pure people who belong to him alone and are eager to do good. Teach these things and use your full authority as you encourage and rebuke your hearers. Let none of them look down on you.” GNB
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