Evidence for God from Science

"P.S.- Donkey, may I ask what are your religious beliefs?"

DONOTENTERhttp://members.tripod.com/~BeitEster/DONOTENTER
Here is a site which explains the beliefs of the group which I affiliate with.

In a previous post I wrote:
-I was raised as a protestant and went through the whole christian experience , born-again, baptised(water and holy spirit), went to bible college, worked in outreach ministries and have been involved to varying degrees for about 20 years. [/quote]

I am glad that you have found your way to the ONE GOD via christianity, but it is time for you to put away your childish misconceptions.

"Hey Donkey, what do you mean it is a necessary idolatry?"

If it were not for christianity then the lost sheep of the house of Israel would have lost their connection to their heritage and the knowledge of the ONE GOD would have been very difficult to deliver to the nations. So Jesus performed a service which even in its misinterpretation results in blessings for all humanity, how much greater will be the blessings when all us idiots actually comprehend the reality we have so far missed.

"Good point, but keep in mind they had a covenant established with God"

Who did Abraham have a covenant with at the start? Why did he not need blood sacrifice to "bring him into the fold"?

I am a tilesetter/stoneworker by trade and it is a common rule that you have to start off with a proper foundation. If you are out by a little at the beginning, then at the end it will be compounded to the extreme. We have had thousands of years of distortion and misinformation, which amazingly enough still brings people to a knowledge of the ONE GOD, His wisdom and His ways do truly amaze!

God originally made everything and everyone. The people whom He made failed, but He knew they would, He even put the rebel in place to insure that they would. The people felt guilty and condemned because they had failed, so the problem is a guilty conscience which is passed on to every child. The problem is in our "mind". This is where we see the separation arise from, this is the source of our problem. The cure is a good conscience.
If I offend you and anger you through some stupid action I do, would you send a member of your house or arrive yourself and commit suicide before me to show me that you had forgiven me. Would this reveal to me a mechanism of restoration of our derailed friendship? If you would not do it because it sounds insane, then why would God HAVE to do it, especially when He is making the rules in this matter. If we offended Him, then we need to do what all the Israelites before us did and repent and do what He commanded us. PERIOD. If you are not Jewish, you are covered under the Noetic covenant and can worship at the alter of Melchizedek in the New House of Prayer. So simple that a child could do it. But your unbridled intellect and pride restrain you. May God have mercy on all us stiff-necked, slow-to-understand people.

Donkey wrote:"P.S.- Donkey, may I ask what are your religious beliefs?"

http://members.tripod.com/~BeitEster/
Here is a site which explains the beliefs of the group which I affiliate with.

In a previous post I wrote:
-I was raised as a protestant and went through the whole christian experience , born-again, baptised(water and holy spirit), went to bible college, worked in outreach ministries and have been involved to varying degrees for about 20 years.

I am glad that you have found your way to the ONE GOD via christianity, but it is time for you to put away your childish misconceptions.

"Hey Donkey, what do you mean it is a necessary idolatry?"

If it were not for christianity then the lost sheep of the house of Israel would have lost their connection to their heritage and the knowledge of the ONE GOD would have been very difficult to deliver to the nations. So Jesus performed a service which even in its misinterpretation results in blessings for all humanity, how much greater will be the blessings when all us idiots actually comprehend the reality we have so far missed.

"Good point, but keep in mind they had a covenant established with God"

Who did Abraham have a covenant with at the start? Why did he not need blood sacrifice to "bring him into the fold"?

I am a tilesetter/stoneworker by trade and it is a common rule that you have to start off with a proper foundation. If you are out by a little at the beginning, then at the end it will be compounded to the extreme. We have had thousands of years of distortion and misinformation, which amazingly enough still brings people to a knowledge of the ONE GOD, His wisdom and His ways do truly amaze!

God originally made everything and everyone. The people whom He made failed, but He knew they would, He even put the rebel in place to insure that they would. The people felt guilty and condemned because they had failed, so the problem is a guilty conscience which is passed on to every child. The problem is in our "mind". This is where we see the separation arise from, this is the source of our problem. The cure is a good conscience.
If I offend you and anger you through some stupid action I do, would you send a member of your house or arrive yourself and commit suicide before me to show me that you had forgiven me. Would this reveal to me a mechanism of restoration of our derailed friendship? If you would not do it because it sounds insane, then why would God HAVE to do it, especially when He is making the rules in this matter. If we offended Him, then we need to do what all the Israelites before us did and repent and do what He commanded us. PERIOD. If you are not Jewish, you are covered under the Noetic covenant and can worship at the alter of Melchizedek in the New House of Prayer. So simple that a child could do it. But your unbridled intellect and pride restrain you. May God have mercy on all us stiff-necked, slow-to-understand people.

I would recommend not going to that Site Anyone... There is a Trojan that runs and trys to install a Script.

Please go here, Donkey. Jesus was the promised Messiah.

would recommend not going to that Site Anyone... There is a Trojan that runs and trys to install a Script.

Thanks for the heads up.

I have been to that site many times and have webrootspysweeper and a good anti-virus program which has never revealed such info. Sounds like fear-mongering to me.

Of course; we're all dreadfully afraid that someone of our board might go to heretical sites and deconvert.

BIZZT said:"I would recommend not going to that Site Anyone... There is a Trojan that runs and trys to install a Script."

I was concerned to hear about this and sent a private message to bizzt to give some details about this so as to remedy the problem, but heard nothing back. But whatever, this seems to be going nowhere. All I seem to get are little snipes and very little reasonable discussion. But I wish you well. may El Shaddai bless you and bring you to enlightenment.

1-Thou shall have no other god's before me.
2-Yeshua stated that he did not come to change the law but fulfill it.
3-Yeshua at no time declared that he was the messiah.
4-His mission was to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Period.
5-Any time we pray to any one other than the one true God, El Shaddai, or look to anyone else for forgiveness or whatever is idolatry. It doesn't make any difference if you mean well. When they made the golden calf they meant well, but they were corrected for their error.
6-When we think that God is too far away from us, that we need a surrogate, lesser, emanated god to intercede for us, then we are following the same path as is indicated in the zohar and the false kabbalah.
7-Christianity, as a whole, is idolatry, albeit a necessary one.
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Who did Abraham and Isaac and Jacob have to declare them righteous before God? (In fact all the notable people in the OT) They were "just" men who lived by their faith and did the deeds which that faith moved them to do. Their righteousness was not imputed to them by anothers actions.
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Christianity is a lazy people's religion as it puts your responsibilities upon the shoulders of another. He does the work and you get the credit!?

Yes, it's true God said to have no other gods before him, that his very name was Jealous. Even so, who here is asserting that the God who said this and Yeshua Messiah are two distinct beings?

"I Am the Bread of Life (John 6:35, 41, 48, 51); I Am the Light of the World (John 8:12); I Am the Gate for the sheep (John 10:7, 9); I Am the Good Shepherd (John 10:11, 14); I Am the Resurrection and the Life (John 11:25); I Am the Way, the Truth, and the Life (John 14:6); I Am the True Vine (John 15: 1, 5)."

"I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!" --John 8:58

At this point they were ready to stone Yeshua, for he made himself out to be the I Am (the I Will Be) ... Christ claimed not to be a new god, but the I Am that made his covenant to their ancestors long ago.

Yes, I agree. Yeshua did not abolish the Law, per se. Certain parts, such as ceremonially cleanliness, yes, he did, but only because their time and their purpose were already served. Part of the New Covenant laid out in Jeremiah is quite amazing ... and infinitely beautiful: "I will write my laws in their hearts ..." Thus, the obligatory nature of the Law is no more; that part is gone, for, through the Spirit within us, we who believe have God's very laws within us.

Yeshua claimed many times to be the Messiah:

"I Am the Messiah!" --John 4:26

"'But who do you say I am?' Simon Peter answered,'You are the Messiah, the Son of the Living God.' Jesus replied, 'You are blessed, Simon son of John [Jonas], because my Father in heaven has revealed this to you.'"
--Matthew 16:15-17

"Many Gentiles will come from all over the world--from east and west--and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob at the feast in the Kingdom of Heaven. But many Israelites--those for whom the Kingdom was prepared--will be thrown into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." --Matthew 8:11-12

God sent Paul to reach the Gentiles: Acts 9:15; God doesn't show favoritism: Acts 10:34, Romans 2:11; it is the privilege and authority of the apostles to spread the Good News even to Gentiles, who have been called by God: Romans 1:5, 6 ... And on and on.

When Christ walked on water, the disciples where quick to worship him. He made it clear that all his power came from his Father, yet not once did he reprimand his disciples for worshiping him. He claimed on many occasions, as I showed above, to be the I Am, and if this is the case (and I am thoroughly convinced it is), then there was no idolatry. In fact, his own brother (literally, aldephoi) Judas [called Jude] said that Yeshua personally was active in the deliverance of the Israelites from Egypt (Jude 5), a bold statement for someone the Scriptures say didn't at first believe, who probably lived with him most of his life.

Don't think of Yeshua as a "lesser, interceding god," but as a High Priest (Hebrews 8 ) standing before God, pleading our case. The Torah makes it clear God has no problem with this. After all, what sinner can look God in the face and live? Since Christ's blood makes us righteous, we can go directly to God through him (this is because Yeshua IS God) because of our faith; this is the individual priesthood of the believer.

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were saved in their faith in the Messiah, like all people. "Your father Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to my coming. He saw it and was glad." --John 8:56 "This sacrifice (Christ's) shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time." --Romans 3:25-26

A lazy man's religion? No. A religion that remembers that God's grace and mercy and justice do not conflict? Yes. Who on earth can follow God's Law with perfection? You? If so, the blood of Yeshua for you is unnecessary. For the rest of us, it is a necessity. You see, God forgives because he is love, and his affection for us is unending. But because he is just, someone must pay the penalty. He does not want that to be us. He himself is the spotless, sinless Lamb that came into the world and paid the price. Otherwise, there could be no forgiveness for sins, because no one but the believer him/herself would have paid the price (eternity isolated from the Father in Hell).

"For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are .... We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are." --Romans 3:20, 22

The Trinity isn't polytheism. We affirm one Being, three Persons. See The Trinity (intro) by Glenn Miller or The Orthodox Doctrine of the Trinity by Puritan Lad. Quote from Glenn Miller:

The Trinity was defined by a document called the Nicene Creed, a man-made paper which tried to define God and Christian doctrine by compromising the views of many varieties of "Christians", some of who had some pretty pagan beliefs.

As for the lazy comment, I think it refers to the fact that some churches read "only through the grace of Christ" to mean that they need not make any efforts, nor repent, despite one of the books of the Bible almost exclusively being about works, and saying "faith without works is dead", and one I believe says, "he who says he has faith, but has not works, is a liar."

Donkey wrote:"you have come here and made some very tenuous statements with absolutely no backup up whatsoever"
-Expressing one's opinion is the primary function of all forums.
-I think that the 10 commandments are a considerable back-up, considering Jesus did not come to change the law.
-I was raised as a protestant and went through the whole christian experience , born-again, baptised(water and holy spirit), went to bible college, worked in outreach ministries and have been involved to varying degrees for about 20 years.
I made this post to help with correcting the errors of christianity, which are many. I don't presume to be a know-it-all, but I have learned some in the course of my life and I am sharing what I know. That is fellowship.
I realize that many people get very emotionally attached to their idols and objects of worship. Pride and intellectual arrogance are constant traps. A quick survey of history, even christian, reveals how violent people can get defending their religion.
I don't mean to offend you, I am putting forward necessary criticisms.

Equus asinus, is this correct

Just read Genesis in detail, and it makes it quite clear that their are two Gods, but only one is "God". The other is "The Lord God" or "The Lord". Jesus calls himself I Am and is once refered to as Jehova, which makes it clear that he is the Lord God of the old testament. We have no other gods before him, not only in idols, but because only he can present us to the father clean, and only he can make us joint heirs (exalted) with him.

oop_master wrote:Just read Genesis in detail, and it makes it quite clear that their are two Gods, but only one is "God". The other is "The Lord God" or "The Lord". Jesus calls himself I Am and is once refered to as Jehova, which makes it clear that he is the Lord God of the old testament. We have no other gods before him, not only in idols, but because only he can present us to the father clean, and only he can make us joint heirs (exalted) with him.

REALLY! Well please provide Detail in Scripture about this! I must have missed it on my read of Genesis in Detail??

oop_master wrote:Just read Genesis in detail, and it makes it quite clear that their are two Gods, but only one is "God". The other is "The Lord God" or "The Lord". Jesus calls himself I Am and is once referred to as Jehovah, which makes it clear that he is the Lord God of the old testament. We have no other gods before him, not only in idols, but because only he can present us to the father clean, and only he can make us joint heirs (exalted) with him.

I am not sure what you are meaning to say, can you clarify a bit more?
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Donkey wrote:1-Thou shall have no other god's before me.
2-Yeshua stated that he did not come to change the law but fulfill it.
3-Yeshua at no time declared that he was the messiah.
4-His mission was to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Period.
5-Any time we pray to any one other than the one true God, El Shaddai, or look to anyone else for forgiveness or whatever is idolatry. It doesn't make any difference if you mean well. When they made the golden calf they meant well, but they were corrected for their error.
6-When we think that God is too far away from us, that we need a surrogate, lesser, emanated god to intercede for us, then we are following the same path as is indicated in the zohar and the false kabbalah.
7-Christianity, as a whole, is idolatry, albeit a necessary one.

1 - Jesus (Yeshua) is God, not another god. Jesus is not before God, because He is one aspect of God's character. We are worshipping the same god.
2 - Yes, fulfil it in the sense that the prophecies were to be fulfilled and justice would ultimately be done through Jesus's death on the cross
3 - He said he was God, and he said that he was also the Son of Man. In Daniel the Messiah appears as one 'like a son of man'. Also, Jesus fulfilled just about every Messianic prophecy in the OT.
4 - No. His mission was to everyone - John 3:16 - ' . . . WHOEVER believes will not perish . . .'
5 and 6 - Again, Jesus is God. He is not a different god. God is coming down to our level in the form of Jesus.
7 - It is not idolatry - idolatry is having a different god to the true one. I shall say it again: 'Jesus is God'

Jesus and YHWH are the same person. God exists in three persons - the Trinity. Jesus is one of those persons.

What do you mean by a necessary idolatry??

Eoccidens wrote:....1 - Jesus (Yeshua) is God, not another god. Jesus is not before God, because He is one aspect of God's character. We are worshipping the same god.
2 - Yes, fulfil it in the sense that the prophecies were to be fulfilled and justice would ultimately be done through Jesus's death on the cross
3 - He said he was God, and he said that he was also the Son of Man. In Daniel the Messiah appears as one 'like a son of man'. Also, Jesus fulfilled just about every Messianic prophecy in the OT.
4 - No. His mission was to everyone - John 3:16 - ' . . . WHOEVER believes will not perish . . .'
5 and 6 - Again, Jesus is God. He is not a different god. God is coming down to our level in the form of Jesus.
7 - It is not idolatry - idolatry is having a different god to the true one. I shall say it again: 'Jesus is God'

Jesus and YHWH are the same person. God exists in three persons - the Trinity. Jesus is one of those persons....

Great Points!

Think of the undivided nature, character, and spirit (life/power) of God. God's Nature has Character and holds life-dunamis. Three are separate yet undivided. One God in three persons. He is unlike all and there are none like him. In fact the Hebrew text does indeed teach the trinity in how it uses the names for God.

One tragic fact is this. During the first century the Jewish people persecuted the Church and then the Church persecuted the Jews during the following centuries. This anti-Semitism has pushed Jews to become anti-Christian in their theology. This is translated into many of their doctrines that are used to promote an oneness concept of God that in reality makes God comparable to the singular deity of Zeus. This makes God like any other false god; thus, the Jewish people are breaking the Torah without realizing it.

God is unlike all gods the bible proclaims. The undivided nature, character, and spirit (life/power) of God that is revealed in the Hebrew Scriptures by use of various names and titles for God prove He is unlike other gods. God's Nature has Character and holds life-dunamis. These three are separate - yet undivided and one making him unlike all other gods.

Think of it. The Temple is no more, the blood sacrificial system of the first covenant is no more as the temple, it priesthood, and its ordinances are no more. The bible speaks of a new Covenant. The only thing left is Jesus as the initiator of the New Covenant as only his blood covers sins. Therefore for the Jewish people is this prophecy still waiting to come to pass:

Zec 12:10, "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.” ESV
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