Evidence for God from Science

DonCameron wrote:

John wrote:Without the star, the Magi would've found their way to Jerusalem first

But without that 'star' what reason would astrologers have had for making such a long trip to Jerusalem in the first place? They said the only reason they had made the trip was because, "We saw his star when we were in the east."

Somehow through the use of astrology those astrologers had correctly interpreted that 'star' to mean that a king of the Jews had recently been born somewhere in the middle east. But who helped them understand that event?

We know that one of God's angels helped the shepherds learn of Jesus' birth. But there is no mention of any angel of God helping those astrologers until they got ready to go back to Jerusalem in order to let Herod know where Jesus was. This is the only mention of God getting involved with those men. And when He did it was not to help Herod but rather to warn them to stay away from him.

What then about Satan? Is he the one who helped them become aware of Jesus' birth? He certainly knew that Jesus had been born. Did he then take advantage of the astrologers' profession in order to try to arrange for Jesus to be put to death before he had any chance of doing his Father's will?

That's what it looks like to me.

Don

Don,

I'm sorry I simply don't get your logic. Let me ask you this (rhetorical) question, if there was no star and the Magi didn't know about he birth of the new king, do you think that Herod would not have found out some other way and still fulfilled Jeremiah 31:15 regardless? Neither the star nor the Magi would have prevented the killing of the children, Don. Satan used Herod to kill the children and in the prosess fulfilled the prophesy. The star of Bethlehem, real or not, allegorical or not, is the first symbol of announcing the birth of the saviour to the world. It was (and still is) a wonderful and joyous thing. Satan would have loved nothing more than to extinguish it along with the news it was responsible for spreading. Once again he didn't succeed. That's the way it looks to me.

Take care,

John.

Hi John,

John wrote:If there was no star and the Magi didn't know about he birth of the new king, do you think that Herod would not have found out some other way?

Sure. Luke 2:20 says that on leaving the manger "Then the shepherds went back, glorifying and praising God for all the things they heard and saw, just as those had been told them.' Seems reasonable to me that even without Satan's help Herod would have eventually come to hear about Jesus' birth. And how much more likely so with Satan's help.

How about this... We today don't need to know anything about the Magi or that 'star' in order to know that Jesus had been born in Bethlehem. We didn't need any help from Satan in order to come to know this.

What about Jeremiah 31:15?

John wrote:Neither the star nor the Magi would have prevented the killing of the children, Don. Satan used Herod to kill the children and in the process fulfilled the prophesy.

That seems right. But my feeling is that if their had been no 'star' or Magi involved, then it would still have been fulfilled - but by some other means.

John wrote:The star of Bethlehem...is the first symbol of announcing the birth of the saviour to the world. It was (and still is) a wonderful and joyous thing.

But according to Luke the first "sign" announcing the birth of the saviour to the world was "an infant bound in cloth bands and lying in a manger." - 2:12. If God used a 'star' to announce Jesus' birth, then I have to wonder why Luke never mention it.

John wrote:Satan would have loved nothing more than to extinguish it (the star) along with the news it was responsible for spreading.

Isn't it amazing how you and I can look at the same thing and see it so completely different! You see that 'star' as "a wonderful and joyous thing" while I see it as a demonic thing! Hmmm...

Don

DonCameron wrote:Hi John,

John wrote:If there was no star and the Magi didn't know about he birth of the new king, do you think that Herod would not have found out some other way?

Sure. Luke 2:20 says that on leaving the manger "Then the shepherds went back, glorifying and praising God for all the things they heard and saw, just as those had been told them.' Seems reasonable to me that even without Satan's help Herod would have eventually come to hear about Jesus' birth. And how much more likely so with Satan's help.

So if Herod heard the news from the shepherds instead of the Magi and still committed the killings, would you be arguing that Satan used the shepherds, and therefore they are ultimately responsible, just as the star is in your current argument? It's the only conclusion I can draw. Why don't we take it a step further. Who was responsible for telling the shepherds to go to Bethlehem? The angel of God. Where does the buck stop in all matters angelic? With God. According to your logic then, God, rather than Satan, is responsible for this evil act. It's the only logical extension to your argument.

DonCameron wrote:How about this... We today don't need to know anything about the Magi or that 'star' in order to know that Jesus had been born in Bethlehem. We didn't need any help from Satan in order to come to know this.

I agree. But now you're arguing against yourself. You're the one claiming Satan needed to use the star to convince Herod to commit the killings, therefore the star was essential in his evil plan.

DonCameron wrote:What about Jeremiah 31:15?

John wrote:Neither the star nor the Magi would have prevented the killing of the children, Don. Satan used Herod to kill the children and in the process fulfilled the prophesy.

That seems right. But my feeling is that if their had been no 'star' or Magi involved, then it would still have been fulfilled - but by some other means.

Exactly. As far as I know, Satan doesn't need to use objects to influence evil. He can pretty much do it directly (just the same way he attempted to directly influence Jesus).

DonCameron wrote:

John wrote:The star of Bethlehem...is the first symbol of announcing the birth of the saviour to the world. It was (and still is) a wonderful and joyous thing.

But according to Luke the first "sign" announcing the birth of the saviour to the world was "an infant bound in cloth bands and lying in a manger." - 2:12. If God used a 'star' to announce Jesus' birth, then I have to wonder why Luke never mention it.

Luke is talking about the event itself. Who witnessed this event and spread the word? The shepherds (locally) and the Magi (sort of the CNN of the time).

DonCameron wrote:

John wrote:Satan would have loved nothing more than to extinguish it (the star) along with the news it was responsible for spreading.

Isn't it amazing how you and I can look at the same thing and see it so completely different! You see that 'star' as "a wonderful and joyous thing" while I see it as a demonic thing! Hmmm...

Don

You get no argument from me there. I don't need to remind you that I'm Catholic and do submit to a higher authority in matters theological I do not fully comprehend (the list is rather gargantuan). The chief reason is what you stated above, when two relatively intelligent beings look at the same text and come away with diametrically opposed opinions, who's to decide who's right and who's wrong (if any)? I tend to defer to the more learned of my church brethren (right or wrong ).

John,

John wrote:So if Herod heard the news from the shepherds instead of the Magi and still committed the killings, would you be arguing that Satan used the shepherds, and therefore they are ultimately responsible, just as the star is in your current argument?

If God had not revealed where Jesus had been born to those shepherds, and they were the ones who followed a 'star' that misled them to Jerusalem rather than Bethlehem so that Herod became became aware of Jesus' birth, then yes, I would feel that Satan had used his 'star' to mislead them in his plan to have Jesus killed.

But if in the natural course of spreading the good news about Jesus' birth throughout the middle so that even Herod got to hear about it, then I wouldn't feel that Satan had used those shepherds to accomplish his purpose.

John wrote:You're (i.e. Don) the one claiming Satan needed to use the star to convince Herod to commit the killings, therefore the star was essential in his evil plan.

I don't feel that Satan needed to use the star. He just happened to choose to use a star and astrologers. I do feel that the 'star' was essential to his evil plan. For without the 'star' those astrologers would not have come to Jerusalem. Herod would have had to learn about Jesus' birth some other way.

John wrote:When two relatively intelligent beings look at the same text and come away with diametrically opposed opinions, who's to decide who's right and who's wrong (if any)? I tend to defer to the more learned of my church brethren (right or wrong ).

I too used to defer to those I thought were "the more learned of my church brethren (right or wrong)." (i.e. the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses). That was until I discovered that they were not as 'learned" as I thought they were.

Don

DonCameron wrote:John,

John wrote:So if Herod heard the news from the shepherds instead of the Magi and still committed the killings, would you be arguing that Satan used the shepherds, and therefore they are ultimately responsible, just as the star is in your current argument?

If God had not revealed where Jesus had been born to those shepherds, and they were the ones who followed a 'star' that misled them to Jerusalem rather than Bethlehem so that Herod became became aware of Jesus' birth, then yes, I would feel that Satan had used his 'star' to mislead them in his plan to have Jesus killed.

But if in the natural course of spreading the good news about Jesus' birth throughout the middle so that even Herod got to hear about it, then I wouldn't feel that Satan had used those shepherds to accomplish his purpose.

(emphasis mine)

In the above scenario, who then would be responsible for the killing of the children?

DonCameron wrote:

John wrote:You're (i.e. Don) the one claiming Satan needed to use the star to convince Herod to commit the killings, therefore the star was essential in his evil plan.

I don't feel that Satan needed to use the star. He just happened to choose to use a star and astrologers. I do feel that the 'star' was essential to his evil plan. For without the 'star' those astrologers would not have come to Jerusalem. Herod would have had to learn about Jesus' birth some other way.

I agree that Satan didn't need the star. The way I see it, he would've influenced Herod's decision irrespective of the mode of news transport.

DonCameron wrote:

John wrote:When two relatively intelligent beings look at the same text and come away with diametrically opposed opinions, who's to decide who's right and who's wrong (if any)? I tend to defer to the more learned of my church brethren (right or wrong ).

I too used to defer to those I thought were "the more learned of my church brethren (right or wrong)." (i.e. the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses). That was until I discovered that they were not as 'learned" as I thought they were.

Don

Forgive me for saying this but it looks to me that this did not change your theological stance much wrt JWs, only the organizational aspects of it.

DonCameron wrote:Bizzt,

I may misunderstand you on this matter, but I get the impression that you feel that the 'star' was something good that God had provided so that those men from the east would be able to find Jesus.

You quoted Mat 2:8: "And Herod sent the wise men them to Bethlehem, and said, 'Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also."'

Do you feel that Herod was sincere when he said that he wanted to worship Jesus? When I realized that later he tried to make sure Jesus was killed, I have concluded that he was lying. (I assume that those wise men were sincere.)

One of the main things that makes me suspicious of that 'star' is the fact that it didn't lead those men directly to where Jesus was. It led them to a man who wanted Jesus dead. On the other hand, the shepherds were directed to where Jesus was by an angel rather than by a 'star.'

Don

Do Men come into a Country(House) unannounced to worship whom they declare a King? I believe the Magi knew where the Star led them but wanted to announce to Herod that they were here! The Star probably led them directly where they needed to go from there. The Shepherds however were not Star Gazers and did not know the Signifigance of the Star.

But you still cannot explain this scripture Don

Mat 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

DonCameron wrote:

John wrote:Without the star, the Magi would've found their way to Jerusalem first

But without that 'star' what reason would astrologers have had for making such a long trip to Jerusalem in the first place? They said the only reason they had made the trip was because, "We saw his star when we were in the east."

Somehow through the use of astrology those astrologers had correctly interpreted that 'star' to mean that a king of the Jews had recently been born somewhere in the middle east. But who helped them understand that event?

We know that one of God's angels helped the shepherds learn of Jesus' birth. But there is no mention of any angel of God helping those astrologers until they got ready to go back to Jerusalem in order to let Herod know where Jesus was. This is the only mention of God getting involved with those men. And when He did it was not to help Herod but rather to warn them to stay away from him.

What then about Satan? Is he the one who helped them become aware of Jesus' birth? He certainly knew that Jesus had been born. Did he then take advantage of the astrologers' profession in order to try to arrange for Jesus to be put to death before he had any chance of doing his Father's will?

That's what it looks like to me.

Don

Ummm where was there any mention of Satan? Clearly we know that these Astrologers were Good Men and wanted to see the New King of Israel. After reading through the Discourses you still not have mentioned where Satan had Deceived? Clearly in Mat 2:2 "Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him." we find out that it is the King of the Jews Star that they saw. How would they know it was King of the Jews Star? Why would Satan want them to worship the King of the Jews? And again if Herod knew of Jesus when the Magi First came then why did he not go out himself to Bethlehem to kill Jesus instead of waiting until the Magi Returned to him?

Then you see that the Star went before them from Jerusalem
Mat 2:9 When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.
Mat 2:10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.

DonCameron wrote:Hi John,

Sure. Luke 2:20 says that on leaving the manger "Then the shepherds went back, glorifying and praising God for all the things they heard and saw, just as those had been told them.' Seems reasonable to me that even without Satan's help Herod would have eventually come to hear about Jesus' birth. And how much more likely so with Satan's help.

How about this... We today don't need to know anything about the Magi or that 'star' in order to know that Jesus had been born in Bethlehem. We didn't need any help from Satan in order to come to know this.

However Joseph and Mary may needed to know the Magi. We forget that the Magi brought great treasures that may have helped Joseph and Mary on their Trip to Egypt. Maybe without those Treasures they would not have survived in Egypt (possibly no work for Joseph?). If the Magi did not come then Herod may not have known about this Jesus as he consulted with Philosophers to get answers about this King before the Magi were summoned. Herod's Curiousity may not have been sparked therefore not fulfilling the prophecy "Out of Egypt have I called my son." Who else would have known about the King unless it were for the Magi going and the lowly Shepherds? Do you think it would have been publicised? The Magi were probably a Huge Group people that were not a part of Jewish Culture and stuck out like a Sore Thumb. Maybe the Star stopped Shining so the Magi had to stop in Jerusalem to Question about the Birth of the King so Prophecy could be fulfilled.

That seems right. But my feeling is that if their had been no 'star' or Magi involved, then it would still have been fulfilled - but by some other means.

However God already directed the Play before it was even written so how is that possible? The Star CLEARLY was the result of Jesus's Birth and was clearly his STAR. Not Satan's!

But according to Luke the first "sign" announcing the birth of the saviour to the world was "an infant bound in cloth bands and lying in a manger." - 2:12. If God used a 'star' to announce Jesus' birth, then I have to wonder why Luke never mention it.

Probably the Same reason why he Never mentioned the Magi?? You know as well as I do the Gospel writers do not Coincide on every detail that the other Gospel writer does.

Isn't it amazing how you and I can look at the same thing and see it so completely different! You see that 'star' as "a wonderful and joyous thing" while I see it as a demonic thing! Hmmm...

Don

It is also amazing that you would believe it is a Demonic thing when it is clearly in the Scriptures that it says it is his Star
Mat 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

Hi bizzt,

One of the things I said was that if their was a star associated with Jesus' birth I have to wonder why Luke never mentioned any star.

bizzt wrote:Probably the Same reason why he Never mentioned the Magi??

I have thought that the reason Luke didn't mention the Magi was because they weren't there when Jesus was born. Matthew's account indicates that by the time they showed up in Bethlehem Jesus was living in a house and may have been close to two years old.

bizzt wrote:After reading through the Discourses you still not have mentioned where Satan had Deceived?

I feel that Satan misused the Magi for the purpose of getting rid of Jesus. Those sincere Magi didn't realize that something was wrong with dealing with the insincere Herod until they were given that divine warning in a dream not to return to him. - Matthew 2:12

Don

Bizzt,

bizzt wrote:But you still cannot explain this scripture Don

Mat 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

Are you asking, How could those Astrologers have known that a King of the Jews had been born somewhere in the middle east if God had not revealed that fact to them?

In the same way that a Quigi board is able to know the correct answers to questions it is asked. Satan knew that Jesus had been born in Bethlehem. He needed to figure out a way to get him killed.

What if he had said to the astrologers, "Listen fellas... A little while ago there was a baby born in Bethlehem that I don't like. I want him assassinated. I'm not asking you to do it yourselves but only that you go to someone that I know will arrange the baby's execution. All you need to do is make sure that a king by them of Herod in Jerusalem finds out that that baby was recently born. I'll make sure that he takes it from there. To make sure that you don't get lost I've created a star for you to follow. And one more thing... Why don't you take along some gifts to make it look like you really care about that baby and that you came to worship him. In this way no one will ever suspect that you had anything to do with the baby's death."

If those astrologers were 'nice people' changes are they would have refused such a direct approach by Satan.

But what if Satan was more subtle than that? What if he took advantage of their profession of astrology and gave them a special 'star' to gaze at and made sure that they interpreted it so that they became convinced that a king of the Jews had been born and that they should try to find the baby so that they could worship him? He then gave them enough information so that they knew to follow the 'star' in order to make sure they ended up in Jerusalem. Satan would make sure that Herod heard about the baby's birth and, knowing what a rotten man Herod was, Satan would then leave it up to Herod to figure out how to locate Jesus and have him put to death. In this way the astrologers would become unwitting accomplices in Satan's plan to put Jesus to death.

I know that takes a lot of reading between the lines, and that I'm not going to be able to get away with such a scenario. But it does fit what actually went on in Matthew's account. It is an attempt to show how Satan rather than God could have been controlling what went on - until God finally intervened in a dream that gave the Magi a warning not to return to Herod. It was only then that the completely innocent astrologers realized that Herod was one of the bad guys.

Don

Hi Don,
Would I be the master of the over statement if I said that I think you are going to Great extremes with your star theory just so you can add credence to your belief that Christians shouldn't celebrate Christmas?

Christmas.. ba humbug.... I don't know if we are talking about the death star now... Sounds like Star Wars to me...

Here is an interesting passage which comes from the book of Enoch:

"2 And in the days of the sinners the years shall be shortened,
And their seed shall be tardy on their lands and fields,
And all things on the earth shall alter,
And shall not appear in their time:
And the rain shall be kept back
And the heaven shall withhold (it).
3 And in those times the fruits of the earth shall be backward,
And shall not grow in their time,
And the fruits of the trees shall be withheld in their time.
4 And the moon shall alter her order,
And not appear at her time.
5 [And in those days the sun shall be seen and he shall journey in the evening on the extremity of the great chariot in the west]
And shall shine more brightly than accords with the order of light.
6 And many chiefs of the stars shall transgress the order (prescribed).
And these shall alter their orbits and tasks,
And not appear at the seasons prescribed to them.
7 And the whole order of the stars shall be concealed from the sinners,
And the thoughts of those on the earth shall err concerning them,
[And they shall be altered from all their ways],
Yea, they shall err and take them to be gods.
8 And evil shall be multiplied upon them,
And punishment shall come upon them So as to destroy all.'
(The Book of Enoch 80:2 - 8 )"

I know it's apocryphal, and therefore questionable as scripture, but it adds a bit more to the star info.I thought that it was a passage of interest, as it explains the confusion which people have for the things of the stars.
I found it on a page which was making reference to the length of the earth's orbit, and how they thought that it had been altered,perhaps at the time of Hezekiah, ("Behold, I will bring the shadow on the sundial of Ahaz ten degrees backward." So the sun returned ten degrees on the dial by which it had gone down. (Isaiah 38: 8 ) This story is repeated in 2 Kings 20:1-11 ) Apparently,there is evidence which suggests that our earth's orbital time was slowed down from 360 days to 365. This is speculative, but if you want to check this out here is the link, http://www.direct.ca/trinity/360vs365.html
Job 38:32, "Mazzaroth" literally means the circle of animals, or what we now call the zodiac.
Also,
Gen 1:14...Let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and for years",referring to stars, yet we somehow along the way stopped using them as a watch and as God's "bulletin board" and began to worship them. Very idolatrous. For many, many millennia we see the astrologers as being mostly the fortune-telling variety and worse, very few knew how to interpret the signs which the stars revealed, and now it is lost knowledge.
Go to google video and view the posting "the great year", very informative and reveals what the ancients thought of the zodiac and such things which is quite far removed from horoscopes.
The thing is, the universe is God's kingdom and He has, due to His incredible foresight set things up which look natural, yet are pregnant with meaning. We are inhabiting a living parable, the universe. Unfortunately, we have lost the ability to read it.

DonCameron wrote:Hi bizzt,

One of the things I said was that if their was a star associated with Jesus' birth I have to wonder why Luke never mentioned any star.

bizzt wrote:Probably the Same reason why he Never mentioned the Magi??

I have thought that the reason Luke didn't mention the Magi was because they weren't there when Jesus was born. Matthew's account indicates that by the time they showed up in Bethlehem Jesus was living in a house and may have been close to two years old.

bizzt wrote:After reading through the Discourses you still not have mentioned where Satan had Deceived?

I feel that Satan misused the Magi for the purpose of getting rid of Jesus. Those sincere Magi didn't realize that something was wrong with dealing with the insincere Herod until they were given that divine warning in a dream not to return to him. - Matthew 2:12

Don

Appealing to the lack of mention in one gospel as grounds for diminishing any concept, teaching, doctrine or historical event contradicts inspiration and inerrency.

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

Hi FFC,

FFC wrote:Would I be the master of the over statement if I said that I think you are going to Great extremes with your star theory just so you can add credence to your belief that Christians shouldn't celebrate Christmas?

I don't have anything against Christians who want to celebrate Christmas. I think it a matter of personal choice.

I suspect you and others on the Forum know as well as I do that most, if not all of the customs associated with "Christmas" really have nothing to do with the birth of Jesus Christ. And that such customs (like the tree and the date, etc.) were borrowed from of other religions.

But I do admit that I have wondered what Jesus would think about the way his birthday is celebrated since he would know the non-Christian background of everything that has become attached to it.

If he came today and saw all the things that go on, I can picture him asking, "What is all this about?" Someone answers, "We are celebrating your birthday!" I can picture Jesus saying, "What?!!"*

My wife likes to decorate a little. And we exchange gifts with members of our families. But we just don't make any connection between these things and the birth of Jesus Christ. (We hope Jesus understands that.)

Don
_______________
*I can also picture Jesus asking, "What do all these things have to do with my birthday?" Someone answers, "Well... Nothing actually. It's just that we grew up doing it this way. But I guess main reason we do it like this is because if we didn't a lot of stores would go out of business. You need to understand Jesus that they depend on us to spend a lot of money this time of the year." And with that explanation, Jesus said, "..............."