Evidence for God from Science

viator wrote:Turgonian, it was stupid unintelligent decisions that allowed German national socialism to regain military power; they were supposed to be disarmed after WW1. The Nazi's wouldn't have had to be beaten if the so-called intelligent leaders in Europe had enforced the rules signed at Versailles.

The Nazis wouldn't have had to be beaten if the other Europeans, France in particular, hadn't been so vindictive at Versailles.

viator wrote:We cannot objectively measure whether we are intelligent because we have no way to make a measurement independent from our influence. How could you measure whether we are intelligent when you state, ..."we know that God made us intelligent ...".

I need only to look at human history to conclude that humans are not an "intelligent species". If human history is not a measure of whether we are an "intelligent species", what is?

But you have just said that intelligence cannot objectively be measured. Your verdict that the human species is 'unintelligent' is therefore very subjective. It sounded like that, too.
It seems you only look at the negative things in history. Yes, there is destructive behaviour, there is war, there is blindness, there is inhumanity (which presupposes that humanity exists, to start with!) -- all because of sin -- but it doesn't end there. There is also a lot of good in the world. Cooperation, including peaceful international cooperation. Friendships. Love. Can you think of, say, Nelson Mandela and then say, 'The human species is unintelligent'? (The human species is not an ominous whole -- it is comprised of individuals, and it is on the individual level that intelligence must be determined.)

Are you unintelligent?

And what is the standard for intelligence?

Turgonian wrote:But you have just said that intelligence cannot objectively be measured. ...

I stated, " We cannot objectively measure whether we are intelligent because we have no way to make a measurement independent from our influence."

You asked, "And what is the standard for intelligence?"

We are right back to your original entry point in this topic, "Stop, people, stop... I couldn't read on when I read this... Do you think that a species that can quibble about the definition of the word 'intelligent' is unintelligent?"

Various dictionaries define the term "intelligent" and unequivocably state that "unintelligent" is the opposite. To accommodate for what we perceive as varying levels of "intelligence" we add a modifier, but intelligent has a "black or white" definition, its not scaled. It would be nice if the term "intelligent species" had sub-levels such as, Level 1, Level 2, Level 3, etc., which would eventually get to the level at which humans perform.

If angels were a species what level would they be?

The evidence indicates our mental processes, as exhibited by our continuing stupid decisions, perform considerably below that of an "intelligent species".

Turgonian, you eventually went to the same position presented by "godslanguage", our unintelligent actions are "-- all because of sin -- ". I note there is a new topic in this forum section, "Our Sinful Nature", which appeared just after "godslanguage" stated in his Dec 16 post, "Humans sin by nature".

If 'intelligent' has a black-or-white definition, define it.

Your definition of 'intelligence' is probably meaningless, though.

Look up the definition of intelligent in most any source and then examine what they define as unintelligent. It is not my definition.

Examine how intelligence is quantified.

http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/intelligence.html

"Psychologists have attempted to measure it for well over a century."

They do not attempt to equate intelligence quotients on how a person with a high or low quotient will make decisions.

Homo sapiens as a whole have a history of making poor decisions.

Give me another species that has a history of making "good decisions" for a point of comparison and then you'll have something.

The power to choose requires varying paths to follow. There's no doubt mankind makes and continues to make very bad decisions. There are very many good ones in the midst of it as well, including the best choice of all, to turn to God and call upon Him for the wisdom and ability to follow the best course. I believe that path lies through Jesus Christ.

Blessings,

Bart

What Canuckster said....

Where's the ape that was posting on these boards? He'd be the one to ask in order to get an unbiased view?

LOL!