The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

[jenna]

Very good points, but where does it say that there are three beings in one body? Or is this not what you are saying?

[zoegirl]

Very good points, but where does it say that there are three beings in one body? Or is this not what you are saying?

This has been addressed many times in the past on this web forum. many many GOOD descriptions. let me find the links. You will not find a verse that says this. The doctrine of the trinity is established from the multitude of the verses that addresses each person of the trinity as having the attributes of God and establishes God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit or Comforter. Each one is addressed as a deity and yet we know from scripture that God is one. As you yourself said that you support the deity of Christ, you acknowledge that Christ is God. (correct?). And yet we know that God is one.

Here are some links to get yu started. Rich has done a great job compiling all of this.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/triunity.html
http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/fathrgod.html
http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/songod.html
http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/humjesus.html
http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/spiritgod.html
http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/index.html (this one will get you to all others)

[jenna]

Yes, I do know that Christ is God, however, some of this is still in question. Many of the verses you gave are not talking about God as one being, or addressing the Nature of God, but instead are talking to Israel, instructing them not to listen to other gods, but the true God ONLY. Christianity believes that the Father and Son are "one" by some form of mystical hypostasis. However, the bible says the Father and Son are "one in the same sense that the Church are "one" in the spirit of unity and purpose. There are many points I have, but I can't cover them all in one post. Just a few here: Christianity accepted the premise of Judaism concerning Monotheism-that God was one being. Yet TWO distinct beings are identified in the prologue of the book of John (1:1-2). Genesis 1:26 also records a conversation between two SEPARATE beings. (Let US make man in OUR image). I could continue, but think I'll save some room (and mind power) for later.

[KrisW]

While I do believe the Trinity is founded in Scripture, I also think traditions have somewhat deluded the doctrine (see Mark 7:13) particularly in the case of the Holy Spirit.

The fact that the Trinity was approved by the NIcean Council in manner similar to an 'earmark' in modern day politics, as well as the fact 1 John 5:17 was altered to give it more credence suggests the Church needs to re-examine it a bit more in depth.

[jenna]

While I do believe the Trinity is founded in Scripture, I also think traditions have somewhat deluded the doctrine (see Mark 7:13) particularly in the case of the Holy Spirit.

The fact that the Trinity was approved by the NIcean Council in manner similar to an 'earmark' in modern day politics, as well as the fact 1 John 5:17 was altered to give it more credence suggests the Church needs to re-examine it a bit more in depth.

Where do you find in scripture any validity to the trinity, Kris?

[KrisW]

Where do you find in scripture any validity to the trinity, Kris?

Matthew 28:19, John 16:13-15, John 17:1-5, Galatians 4:4, 2 Corinthians 3:17, just to name a few verses.

Why do you ask? Don't you believe in the Trinity?

[jenna]

No, I don't. I believe that God the Father and God the Son are two separate beings in one family, and the Holy Spirit is the mind, or power of, God the Father. It is not an actual "being".

[KrisW]

Care to cite any Scripture to support your radical view?

[jenna]

Care to cite any Scripture to support your radical view?

Well, I would'nt exactly call it "radical", but there is scriptural proof, yes. Personally I haven't found any scripture that PROVES without a doubt the validity of the trinity. I will look up the scriptures you want and provide them, but it will take a liitle while. I'll provide them as soon as I get them.

[KrisW]

I'll be waiting....

[jenna]

Ok, in the meantime, give me scripture that proves the trinity with out a doubt.

[KrisW]

I've already posted quite a few....of course, none them " proves the trinity with out a doubt." as you wish.

But again, feel free to keep up your polemic rant.

[jenna]

And again, I will.

[oscarsiziba]

All things are from God the Father,through Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit.The Trinity is not found in Scripture as a whole picture as some of us would want to have.There are things that are not directly taught in the Bible ,but are required and holy still before God.Example:That it is unlawful to buy on the Sabbath-this we learn form the adherents of Christ at His death,but is not taught anywhere in the Bible.What the church did was just naming the existing reality-indeed the Father,the Son and Holy spirit are there and the three of them make a trio!There is no variation in ideology in this trio,but division of labour with intent to have one final thing-the salvation of man.They are ONE-not in body ,but operation and desire.

[Kurieuo]

Care to cite any Scripture to support your radical view?

Well, I would'nt exactly call it "radical", but there is scriptural proof, yes. Personally I haven't found any scripture that PROVES without a doubt the validity of the trinity. I will look up the scriptures you want and provide them, but it will take a liitle while. I'll provide them as soon as I get them.

• John 14
  5"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor [another like Jesus ] to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
  ...
  25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

I don't know about other here, but it certainly seems the Holy Spirit is more than an property of God like a mind or power.