Evidence for God from Science

Who has the capability to judge the intensity of the pain if the sufferer cannot communicate?

Don't know; I guess the doctor. Grandma lost the ability to talk or even blink after a while, so we didn't know how she was feeling. We kept giving her the medication though.

I'd agree with Beena. There are medications available to stop the pain. If it is pain that is the reason, then one should medicate the pain not take the life.

On the other hand, if they want to commit suicide, then why should someone elses hand be tainted by their desire to die?

Kurieuo.

Instead of painkillers, you could always put them into permanent sleep and feed them through tubes. Maybe wake them up for family visits. Of course, the cost might bee too much for sickos who put a value on human life.

I think that it's time for Biblical storytelling!

It starts in Numbers 31, where Moses and the Israelites settle in a land area near the Midianites. The Midianites hate the Israelites and their monotheism. In fact they hate them so much that the Midianites take the time, the money, and the effort to send ten thousand, I repeat, ten thousand women to the Israelites for the specific purpose of seducing them, and then getting the horny men to pray to the pagan gods, which would make the Israelites fall out of favor with God, which is exactly what the Midianites want.

But God don't play that game. After a while, the turning away from God in favor of sex gets worse and worse. God tells Moses to end it all. He orders Moses to mount an attack on the Midianites to kill the guilty parties (the women and their husbands), and adopt their daughters and take care of them.

The little boys, however, are a different story. Boys take too much time and money, and adopting them would only cause Israel to starve. So God orders the Midianite boys be killed as well.

Now, Abraham pleaded that God spare Sodom and Gomorah, and Moses pleaded that God spare the Hebrews for turning to idolatry. So it only makes sense that Moses would plead that God try not kill these innocent children. I can picture Moses praying in his tent (keep in mind, this is a "what if" kind of play--it shouldn't be thought of as literal):

MOSES: Lord, this decision of killing the guilty Midianites is nessesary, but the killing of these children is so brutal. Is there any other way?

GOD: What I have commanded, I have commanded.

MOSES: But Lord, you commanded "thou shalt not kill", and the law shouldn't apply to these children who have done no wrong.

GOD: What would you suggest?

MOSES: We should spare them, Lord.

GOD: If you spare them, where will they go? With you? Would you starve yourself? Would you starve your nation's children to keep these boys alive? Or would you spare them and leave them at home? Leaving to think about their slaughtered mothers and fathers, with no means to live? On the first day they will cry for their mother's and fathers; on the tenth day they begin to starve and feel great pain; on the twentieth day, they will be unable to move, and then they will die. Do you think you can shield yourself from the world by ignoring the cries of others? Be still! For I am God!


Of course the conversation may never have taken place. My point is that God not only allowed, but ordered the killing of the most innocent of human beings for one reason, and one reason only: to shorten their suffering.

For me, Numbers 31 leaves no reasonable doubt that God approves of mercy killing.

Murder, not kill. Sorry, but it pisses me off when people use the two words interchangeably.

Anyway, back on topic: Moses was given a direct order from God. We don't know why. All we're doing is assuming that it was mercy killing. Unless God explicitly states it's OK(or at least confirms that those killings were indeed for mercy's sake), I would not feel right in accepting it.

Mastermind, you should read the works of Emmanuel Kant. I think he would have agreed with you to a great degree.

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I believe that we should not take part in assisted suicide. Suicide isn't something God condones so why should we assist it? In Numbers, God knows things we don't, since He's God we know that his order was just, righteous, and perfectly correct (I imagine the children wouldn't be punished in the afterlife).

We are supposed to hang on to life, we're here for a reason and we're here because God willed it so. We should cherish the life that He has given us and when it seems like it's all not worth it we're supposed to have hope and love Him. If someone wants to kill themselves because of all the pain, I will assure them that Christ is with them and that they should have hope, because in the end there will be no pain, just happiness with Christ. Wanting to die is contrary to Christianity, the pain of debilitating disease is a great test for those who endure it, when they are cured, or they die, they are rewarded for their faith and hope in Christ if they had it.

Being willing to go through the pain and not asking to be killed, in my opinion, is a righteous thing. Assisted suicide can have a demoralizing effect on the family (however, depending on the situation, it can be an uplifting thing for the family). That's what Grandma did: she went through it all...but she was very, very lucky. The type of cancer she had works rather fast, and she had access to the best medication for the pain, machines to help her get around, plenty of family members taking shifts watching her at her home, and a hospital for when things got really bad.

Suicide isn't something God condones so why should we assist it?

Well, I believe that one of the big points that Jesus tries to make was that legalistic societies can't work and that sin lies in our hearts. That being said, I need to say that suicide can be bad, but not inherently bad. Suicide is bad because it affects others around you. If I killed myself, I would send shockwaves of pain to my family--and even if I didn't have a family, I should try my best to keep going anyway. But unfortunately, life isn't always that simple, and I think God tries to tell us that in some passages.

Think of Exodus 32, for example. What seems like 5 minutes after Moses says to the Israelites not to make idols, they make a golden calf. Moses pleads that God not kill them all...and then God makes a decision, and tells Moses to say...

26 "Whoever is for the LORD , come to me." And all the Levites rallied to him.

27 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD , the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' " 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, "You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day."

So God orders the deaths of those who aren't loyal, and blesses the killers?!! Is there something missing? Well actually, yes. You see, under normal circumstances the Israelites would simply let the troublemakers go their merry way...but one forgets that the Israelites have been dependant on God to keep them alive in the dessert, by literally dropping loaves of bread from the sky, and cracking open big rocks to let flowing water out.

God is not going to give free lunch to those who defy him, so God now has a choice: let the heretics separate from the rest of the Israelites, which would mean they would die of thirst out in the dessert, OR kill them now and skip their suffering. He chose the latter, and I don't think God holds back from us with these passages, I think he's trying to tell us about the definition of mercy...especially when he blesses the killers.

So all I can say now is, if you one day suffer horrible pain and want to die, you would need to ask yourself: Would I be hurting someone I love if I made that decision? If yes, then grit your teeth and take it pilgrim!