Evidence for God from Science

Judah wrote:Picking up on PL's comment up there above, and to elaborate a little more... August writes in his blog here on the subject of desire and repentance, especially in relation to homsexuality and celibacy and ordination in the church.
His comments gave me a lot to think about, and it would seem to me that any sin could be substituted for sexual sin here, because the issue concerns repentance such that the sinful desire is regarded as abhorrent and causes disgust and sorrow in oneself. So then, thinking that homosexuality is OK (just so long as you don't indulge in any such desire) is not quite enough. It isn't OK. No part of a sinful nature is OK. We need to submit ourselves in humble obedience to God and be renewed - a new heart, a transformation brought about by the working of the Holy Spirit within us. To say that homosexuality is OK if I just don't give in to temptation is like saying that stealing is OK if I don't give in to the temptation to steal, or greed is OK if I don't give in to the temptation to stuff myself. It really isn't OK. Our sinful natures are not OK, and we should be repulsed by such sinful desires and yearn for the transformation that has us become "in the likeness of Christ" - which is, of course, the process of sanctification. In my own experience, some things happen quickly, and others take far longer to come about. We do not get made perfect in this earthly life, but we can give up ourselves in humble submission to Him such that our lives become increasingly holy and sinful desire is "broken" in us.

How do you think those ideas fit here, Harry 12345? Bart? Others?

I absolutley agree with what you say....after all, single heterosexual Christians are not off the hook as long as they are celibate, are they? They are to adhere to purity of the mind as well, no lusting after the opposite sex. And to constantly guard yourself from lust when it is part of one's nature to notice? ....Oy And heterosexual attraction is right and healthy, and yet God calls us to not lust after another person. Christ called attention to this matter, driving home the point that it is not simply what you do but the thoughts that implicate adultery.

Judah,

I read the blog and comments and I do not find anything there that I disagree with.

Only thoughts I would add for clarification would include:

1. The standards for ordination are higher and fall under eldership. Standards are applied there to a higher degree than membership and acceptance and fellowship and there needs to be a clear understanding of that. Divorce, heterosexual adultery, the growing problem with computer porn and sexual addictions (or habitual sin, which I think is more accurate) fall into this category as well and should be enforced and screened for as vigorously as homosexuality or else there is a double standard at work that is no better than those chuch's that give homosexuality a nod and a wink in this regard'

2. I think there is a clear delineation between desire, temptation and the actual committing of sin. I've been in ministry before, I am happily married and have never broken my vows in over 23 years of marriage. If I were to say to you that I have never looked at another woman in lust, I would be lying. In fact, to be transparent, this is an issue I have wrestled with and for which I am praying continually for strength to overcome. I am through deliberate and conscious effort, coupled with a reliance upon the Holy Spirit learning to avert my eyes when tempted and replace my sinful response with something more positive, such as praying for the woman to know you and praying for my wife and family. Yet I still have the occassional lapses in my thought life and visually dwelling on suggestively dressed women or media. Does that mean I am not qualified for ministry? I've prayed for God to remove the desire but then I remember it is not an unhealthy desire in my case, it is simply one meant for a specific context where it is a beautiful thing.

I don't see how homosexual desire can fall into that category neatly because obviously, there is no healthy or non-sinful context for it to fall.

I personally believe that a born-again Christian who wrestles with this desire but who does cross into action and who does not seek to justify the desire as unbeatable can be qualified for ministry, just as I believe that someone who has a desire for drink, heterosexual sex, gluttony etc. can maintain the outward standard required for ministry. The heart is a matter for all of us to guard against and continually work in the realm of healing.

I don't for a minute justify homosexuality, but I will repeat that I believe as a Church we are not conistent and not manifesting the love of Christ in general in the manner that we reach out to those who are homosexual. I think a strong read of the Gospels and how Jesus treated the outcasts of his day, prostitutes. tax collectors etc. is in order.

Unfortunately, there is a large component of my own denomination, the Anglican Communion, who do not see any problem with the ordination of practising homosexual people... and that being so is tearing the Communion apart. Those clergy adopting the liberal theology that allows this situation will say that we are all discounted by virtue of having a sinful nature, that to be consistent then nobody can be a candidate for holy orders. I am so opposed to this liberal theology - it sickens me dreadfully.

What I see important is our own response to our sinful nature. Rather than protest that it is OK, and may even be indulged, we must repent - turn away from - and see it as a matter of sorrow, not celebration. This must go for all sin, not just sexual sin. But many openly gay clergy, especially those in civil partnerships, do indeed celebrate their state of sin. Even being celibate is not enough, as August points out. I think it concerns coming to the point of "brokenness" concerning the sin that is the crucial thing. Then God can do the transformation work within - a new heart, a new nature.

In what you have mentioned concerning yourself, Bart, I do see "brokenness" and repentance. You are certainly not celebrating sin, or even just saying it is OK. That is what is required of us - repentance. And from that point God works within us to make us become increasingly in the likeness of Christ. So I do not see you should be excluded from holy orders - not at all. Instead, I see you as having the right attitude. I am just mindboggled that there are those in the church who trade humble and submissive obedience to God for the opposite, namely disobedience and unrepentant celebration of sin. They are not subscribing to the traditional Biblical Christianity handed down to us from the Apostles and Church Fathers. To my mind, they are of a different faith altogether.

And as regards all sinners, especially those who are repentant, it is with great compassion and Godly love that we must care for each other, all of us being in need in this way. In short, we are reading from the same page, Bart - and Zoegirl.

I don't disagree Judah. Open celebration of sin or equating homosexuality as something from which there is no release is not consistent with the Gospel.

I'm arguing for balance, not tolerance of sin.

I think Brokenness, repentance and further a period of time in walking in victory are what is required in any sin, especially sexual sin of any kind which is so insidious and difficult to break bonds, but thanks to God, victory is possible.

Canuckster1127 wrote:I don't disagree Judah. Open celebration of sin or equating homosexuality as something from which there is no release is not consistent with the Gospel.

Yes, but to be honest, evidently God has higher priorities when it comes to fixing things inside me. Yes, all sin is equal BUT being impatient or easily angered is far more destructive in this life than quietly fantasising having sex with the muscle-bound blonde guy who sits oppoisite me in English class.

But, when the time is right, I have faith that He will move on and do just that.

Harry12345 wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:I don't disagree Judah. Open celebration of sin or equating homosexuality as something from which there is no release is not consistent with the Gospel.

Yes, but to be honest, evidently God has higher priorities when it comes to fixing things inside me. Yes, all sin is equal BUT being impatient or easily angered is far more destructive in this life than quietly fantasising having sex with the muscle-bound blonde guy who sits oppoisite me in English class.

But, when the time is right, I have faith that He will move on and do just that.

Not to be dismissive of this, but if we constantly dismantle God;s work in us by focusing on sinful thoughts, then of course it will apear as if it is not a priority. We are to seek Him and His thoughts.

I have struggled with this as well from a heterosexual standpoint. If I seek out those trashy romance novels and fill my head with thoughts that I have no right thinking at this point in my life, then I am against God.

WE are to "take captive every thought and make it obedient to Christ", this does not mean allowing ourselves to fantasize about those of a certain sex as long as we do not give in to the fantasy (hmm, I'm sure any married couple could anwer that questions ); if I struggle with gluttony, then how does it help to focus my thoughts on food that I should not have? Or allowing my thoughts to dwell on covetous ideas of the houses and cars that I would love to have, even if do not indulge?

We must contantly be diligent with our mind. sScripture points to satan as being a prowling lion, ready to pounce.

believe me, I am coming from an understanding heart. But we cannot let this understanding become an excuse to dwell on unhealthy thoughts.

In Christ
ZG

That is very a good Point ZoeGirl.

I don't think we should be willing to have any Sin in our lives. God considers it all bad and does not just work on one thing. He is working on all things as there is a New Heart and a New Teaching inside of you. It would be working on all aspects of your life for it says...

Psa 119:131 I opened my mouth, and panted: for I longed for thy commandments.

I'm with Zoegirl on this, all the way.

There is a book written by two Christian psychologists, Drs Henry Cloud and John Townsend, which is very readable and may help with understanding what all this is about...
How People Grow: What the Bible Reveals about Personal Growth.
These authors have written a number of books, their classic one on Boundaries having already been recommended on this forum by Kurieuo.

Spiritual growth does involve obedience to God on every front, and slipping in one area may hold someone back on another, especially if it is used as an excuse... God is working on my gluttony right now, my sexuality is getting a break. The truth is that no part is on vacation. Yes, this kind of work takes time and we experience a great many failures on the way, but His mercy and grace mean that failures are less important than picking oneself up and pressing on towards the goal. There will be a kind of hierachy in what is to be focussed on, some things needing to be fixed first before others can be, but that does not mean allowing sin to creep in by deliberately indulging in something meantime because it isn't seen to be the primary thing to be fixed. Uh-oh! Maybe the fact one does that is moving up to the number one slot! And a lot of things are worked on in parallel, not in serial. What I am saying is that one must be very careful of one's own rationalizations, saying something of God which doesn't fit the character of God - that He doesn't mind if I do this sin because He and I are working on a different sin just at the moment. Does that really sound like God? I believe He does mind, as merciful as He is, and one needs to take care of motives in attempting to justify anything that is contrary to His purpose for us.

Judah wrote:that He doesn't mind if I do this sin because He and I are working on a different sin just at the moment.

That's not what I said. Do I sound like someone who actually allows myself to be overcome by lust and not feel guilty, or someone who doesn't try not to be overcome in the first place? Oh dear, I'll put how I represent myself on the no.2 slot.

Me and God are working on my wrath at the moment, not on my homosexuality. The reason for this is because wrath is more destructive short term and in the Earth. This does NOT mean that I do not bother with the sin of lust, or I commit those sins regularly and not feel guilty. It simply means that I am not working on it at the moment. I try not to lust after other people, and I've quit throwing my seed on the floor.

Or do you think that because I suffer from same sex attraction I automatically look at every single Tom, **** and Harry in the street and lust after them like a piece of chocolate cake that I want to get my tounge all over? Because that's just not true.

I think you and Judah are more or less on the same page. Judah (correct me if I am wrong Harry) I think Harry sees himself working on his Wrath more because that is at the forefront of his Mind. Even though God maybe working on Harry's life as a whole it seems to Harry that God is working more with him on the his Wrath. All about Perception right

bizzt wrote:I think you and Judah are more or less on the same page. Judah (correct me if I am wrong Harry) I think Harry sees himself working on his Wrath more because that is at the forefront of his Mind. Even though God maybe working on Harry's life as a whole it seems to Harry that God is working more with him on the his Wrath. All about Perception right

He shoots, he scores.

P.S. Ooops... looks like I said a naughty word.

No, I am not taking your comments to mean yoiu are lusting after every guy; However, you said in your post that God isn't concenrned if you are fantasizing about the guy in English class. THis implies an active thought process. For instance, it can be quite different if an increadibly handsome guy walks into the room and I stop cold and just shake my head at his look, or physique, or smile, or eyes, etc versus seeing this guy and proceeding to fantasize about sex.

If you had said "noticing" the guy, or even being attracted to the guy, this would be a different approach. Your language implied an active thought process allowing sexual imagery beyond a fleeting image or thought.

Ceratinly we can all agree that we are creatures of a sensual nature. God has created us to notice. That handsome guy might induce a sigh, eyes opening wider, even a second glance (although that second glance can often be that one that causes trouble). But if I develop a whole plot line in my mind of a sexual fantasy I have stepped beyond the line. I am feeding that lust.

It is at this crucial moment, that second glance, that sigh, or that initial look, that we are to "take captive our thoughts and make them obedient to Jesus Christ". We must learn at that moment to pray to God. How can Christ work in us if we rebel and feast on thoughts that are sinful? It may seem like God is ignoring it. BUt in reality we are not allowing Him are part of us and in fact we are hoarding a part of us, trying to cling to some secret sin. Certainly I do not mean to take away from any other work on anger. As Judah said very well, it's not as if God's sanctifying work works in a series.

Imagine Christ rebuilding us as a temple for HIm. In this analogy imagine HIm working on one part of this temple and we are tearing down another part because we want to indulge in some sin while acknowledging Him working on this other part.

If you were using that as an illustration, then my apologies....I guess I am reading the comment about the English class as something you would be ok with. If that is not the case, then certainyl I am not speaking directly to your situation

However, I would still make that point to the hypothetical person who does this.


Also, you imply that your homosexuality is the reason I am assuming you are lusting after every....

No, my response was to your comment about the guy in English class, that;s it.

I have given every indication of understanding the temptation to think thoughts of sexual nature.

zoegirl wrote:However, you said in your post that God isn't concenrned if you are fantasizing about the guy in English class.

No I didn't. I said wrath was more destructive in this earthly realm. Before I came to God I had some serious troubles with wrath, especially on my little brother and some of the people were supposed to be my friends. Wrath was much worse (well, more common) than my other sins. So, when I came to Christ, wrath was given the immediate attention. I have toned it down ALOT thanks to the Holy Spirit, but there's still some fine-tuning to be done.

THis implies an active thought process. For instance, it can be quite different if an increadibly handsome guy walks into the room and I stop cold and just shake my head at his look, or physique, or smile, or eyes, etc versus seeing this guy and proceeding to fantasize about sex.

If you had said "noticing" the guy, or even being attracted to the guy, this would be a different approach. Your language implied an active thought process allowing sexual imagery beyond a fleeting image or thought.

Ceratinly we can all agree that we are creatures of a sensual nature. God has created us to notice. That handsome guy might induce a sigh, eyes opening wider, even a second glance (although that second glance can often be that one that causes trouble). But if I develop a whole plot line in my mind of a sexual fantasy I have stepped beyond the line. I am feeding that lust.

It is at this crucial moment, that second glance, that sigh, or that initial look, that we are to "take captive our thoughts and make them obedient to Jesus Christ". We must learn at that moment to pray to God. How can Christ work in us if we rebel and feast on thoughts that are sinful?

I hardly ever fantasised about such things even before I was saved. Lust was not a serious problem when I came to Christ; it was not given AS MUCH attention - it wasn't a prioritiy.

When God is ready, He will work on my homosexuality. Until then, all I can do is try to be more patient, tolerant and helpful, and to be obediant to Christ and the Holy Spirit. That was what I was trying to say.