Evidence for God from Science

Take your time by all means. Yes, I have over 36,000 posts on that site. No I am not retired. In fact I have a full time job, a part time job, and three tutoring jobs. I also do a lot of church work. But I've been on that site for almost 7 years now.

Jac3510 wrote:But what about all the people who I didn't get around to telling? They don't get a meal, either. Does that mean it was unfair of me to give the meal to those who believed my promise that food was waiting for them at the local diner?

If I was omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient, then I don't think getting the message to everyone would be a problem.

Fortigurn wrote:

YLTYLT wrote:I regard to Pierac verses and questions:
All are forgiven. But not all accept that they are forgiven. If I forgive someone that has done something wrong to me but they deny that what they did was wrong, even though they know deep in their heart that it was, then although I have forgiven them, forgiveness is not complete until they have accepted the forgiveness.

Where is that in the Bible? If you're forgiven, then it doesn't matter if you accept it or not - the fact is that you're forgiven.

When one person forgives another, the person doing the forgiving is benefitted because it clears there heart to love again. And it squashes the bitterness.

Forgiveness does not affect the person being forgiven if they do not feel they deserve to be forgiven or they do not feel they have done anything of which to be forgiven. Only when they realize they have done wrong to the person doing the forgiving can restoration of the relationship begin to take place. I believe this is called repentence, changing our minds about what we have done.

Someone may have already mentioned this, but if we got what was "fair" or "what we deserved" wouldn't we all be buring in hell? God was not obligated in any way to send Jesus. That's what grace is.
Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death but the free gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord.
Also, judging from Romans 1:18-21 it is easy to make the argument that proof for God is in his creation, which we all see, no matter where we are or if we've heard the gosphel.

The question asked here is what about the people that don't get to hear about Christ. Do they get saved.
My answer is there are no people that don't hear about Christ. That is everybody gets to know about Christ to the same degree.
How is this possible.
My thoughts are based on the conversion of Paul.

Paul had been preached to by the best Christians at the time. For example he was there when Stephen gave his great witness to Christ. Yet he did not repent instead he went to the other extreme and started persecuting Christians.
So from this I conclude that the rejection of one preachers message about Christ by an unbeliever does not mean that that person is doomed.
Now what happens next.
The road to Damascus. Christ himself preachers to Paul.
When Christ preachers to Paul he is good as dead spiritually as well as physically (He was struck to the ground) So Paul on hearing the voice of Christ accepted Him. Now at this point Christ could have taken him to heaven or sent him on a mission. Now Jesus decided to send Paul on a mission instead of taking him to heaven.
So the point I am making is that no matter what at least on a persons death bed Christ will appear to all people. In that second Christ will make up for the lack of all the preachers that preached or did not preach to that person. That person will in that moment decide to accept or reject Christ. Because God is a just God, If Paul the persecutor of Christians had a supernatural experience so will all people, even if it be in their death Bed.

fdesilva wrote:The question asked here is what about the people that don't get to hear about Christ. Do they get saved.
My answer is there are no people that don't hear about Christ. That is everybody gets to know about Christ to the same degree.
How is this possible.
My thoughts are based on the conversion of Paul.

Paul had been preached to by the best Christians at the time. For example he was there when Stephen gave his great witness to Christ. Yet he did not repent instead he went to the other extreme and started persecuting Christians.
So from this I conclude that the rejection of one preachers message about Christ by an unbeliever does not mean that that person is doomed.
Now what happens next.
The road to Damascus. Christ himself preachers to Paul.
When Christ preachers to Paul he is good as dead spiritually as well as physically (He was struck to the ground) So Paul on hearing the voice of Christ accepted Him. Now at this point Christ could have taken him to heaven or sent him on a mission. Now Jesus decided to send Paul on a mission instead of taking him to heaven.
So the point I am making is that no matter what at least on a persons death bed Christ will appear to all people. In that second Christ will make up for the lack of all the preachers that preached or did not preach to that person. That person will in that moment decide to accept or reject Christ. Because God is a just God, If Paul the persecutor of Christians had a supernatural experience so will all people, even if it be in their death Bed.

So you take Paul's Damascus Road conversion to mean that God effectively struck him dead so Christ could appear to him and then brought him back so he could continue in service and that is your basis for the belief that God will be "fair" in allowing everyone the same type of opportunity to accept Christ?

Sorry, but that is a huge stretch and rationalization in my book.

The Bible states that

Heb 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

I don't find any passage to suggest what you are. Do you have a Biblical case to build on direct teaching and beyond this type of weak inference?

Newuser wrote:I have a question of fairness and salvation, does everyone get a chance?

To make it short:
It is a little puzzling for me. In the past and in some regions of the world, God would not be known by those people.

And is it said that everyone has only one chance of Salvation and one chance of avoiding hell but for those who may have never even heard of God or anything in their lifetime because of various reasons , is it fair?

I need some help and answers on that situation I am describing above.

I believe when someone cries out to God...then God makes it a point to get the gospel to them regardless of where they may be. God can use any number of resources to do this. Man isn't so smart that he 'invented' all these things. God is the great creator and inventor. These things were invented so the gospel could reach all people in any variety of ways. Even in the Bible....God used a multitude of ways to address people to show them who He was. Some received Him....some didn't...but it was never because God didn't respond.

With God...there is no Apostle -vs- Peon or Believer -vs Unbeliever. He says He is no respector of persons and loves ALL of us the same. So, he's certainly not going to give one individual an advantage over another.

This issue gets all confusing because of the obvious of certain people/tribes past, present and future who it doesn't seem had/has the same access to God. I don't understand all that....so all I can do is go to the Word and believe what He said. Some things we just won't understand until all is revealed in the correct time or in the end. Just as He referred to 'The Church' as a mystery....I believe there are a great many other mysteries that will be clarified when the time comes that we need to know.

I'm not trying to give a 'cop out' answer....I just have to believe in God and His wonderful Goodness.

I don't have a problem with embracing mystery. I agree there are issues in the Bible and with Christianity where we simply don't have definitive answers to some things, and this question is likely one of those situations. I certainly wrestle with the idea that a loving God would condemn people who have never had the opportunity to hear the gospel to an eternity apart from God in conscious torment.

That said, I think there's a difference between admitting an inability to understand how some things are reconciled or creating a scenarion or doctrine to reconcile it that isn't explicitly or even implicitly present in the Bible itself.

I expect there will be mystery. There has to be. I am finite. God is infinite. There are some things I simply do not possess the capacity to understand. I can appeal to the idea of justice or fairness and that is a legitimate need and appeal on my part which is part of the image of God in my life. It's another thing to imagine that I will completely understand how justice and grace are reconcilled in the mind of God because I'm not in a position to know and understand all that God does. So, I use what I have, the mind God has given me, the Holy Spirit that dwells within me, and the Bible which reveals God's nature and character and I do my best to come to an understanding.

I think it is better at some point to admit there is mystery and embrace it, than to continue to push past the limits we have and force an understanding that must at some point break from and diminish what God has given us.

Canuckster1127 wrote:That said, I think there's a difference between admitting an inability to understand how some things are reconciled or creating a scenarion or doctrine to reconcile it that isn't explicitly or even implicitly present in the Bible itself.

And therein....lies many of the problems with organized religion.

There are times when I've asked God about something puzzling me and have gotten totally fulfilling answers. Then there are those other times when I get the 'My ways are higher than your ways....and if I told you - you couldn't comprehend it anyway'' answer. I always assume it's much like me trying to explain what a computer is to someone in the Dark Ages. It would be impossible to do without them even understanding simple electicity....much less the complicated parts.

Canuckstert1127 wrote: I expect there will be mystery.

I've always wondered if in the end the 90% or so of our brain we don't currently use will open up and we'll suddenly understand or if we'll be in 'class' a long time into our eternity. I imagine it will be a combination of the two.

Canuckster1127 wrote:I expect there will be mystery. There has to be. I am finite. God is infinite. There are some things I simply do not possess the capacity to understand.

Bart,

I was thinking about this the other day... I'm wondering also if God intentionally left things as a mystery to us so that it wouldn't invade our free will. As an example.. Creation. It is a mystery. God could have made it obvious from science but mystified it so that it wouldn't necessarily point back to him. If he did make it obvious, then there would be no question (from science) that he created it, thus invading our free will. Much like leaving a paper trail.

Salvation would fall into this category as well... Perhaps later we will find more out about it...

Mysteries are more fun than just plain answers anyways which can sometimes stifle creativity. It keeps the mind active and promotes learning.. God could have answered our every question, but it actually means more if I was to learn it on my own without the fireworks of God... It becomes a part of me.

Sometimes answering a question with a question can be more meaningful. Like in the Book of Job.

Just a thought anyways. I don't know....

Canuckster1127 wrote:

fdesilva wrote:The question asked here is what about the people that don't get to hear about Christ. Do they get saved.
My answer is there are no people that don't hear about Christ. That is everybody gets to know about Christ to the same degree.
How is this possible.
My thoughts are based on the conversion of Paul.

Paul had been preached to by the best Christians at the time. For example he was there when Stephen gave his great witness to Christ. Yet he did not repent instead he went to the other extreme and started persecuting Christians.
So from this I conclude that the rejection of one preachers message about Christ by an unbeliever does not mean that that person is doomed.
Now what happens next.
The road to Damascus. Christ himself preachers to Paul.
When Christ preachers to Paul he is good as dead spiritually as well as physically (He was struck to the ground) So Paul on hearing the voice of Christ accepted Him. Now at this point Christ could have taken him to heaven or sent him on a mission. Now Jesus decided to send Paul on a mission instead of taking him to heaven.
So the point I am making is that no matter what at least on a persons death bed Christ will appear to all people. In that second Christ will make up for the lack of all the preachers that preached or did not preach to that person. That person will in that moment decide to accept or reject Christ. Because God is a just God, If Paul the persecutor of Christians had a supernatural experience so will all people, even if it be in their death Bed.

So you take Paul's Damascus Road conversion to mean that God effectively struck him dead so Christ could appear to him and then brought him back so he could continue in service and that is your basis for the belief that God will be "fair" in allowing everyone the same type of opportunity to accept Christ?

Sorry, but that is a huge stretch and rationalization in my book.

The Bible states that

Heb 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

I don't find any passage to suggest what you are. Do you have a Biblical case to build on direct teaching and beyond this type of weak inference?

I am not saying Paul was dead, but the same as someone that is dying.(A sick person) What I am saying is that in the last seconds of anyones life God can speak to them. Take the dying robber next to Christ, Christ converted him while they both were dying. Today's near death experiances tell a same story. Also while Paul was not dead, there is God can take a person to death and bring him back as in the case of lazaras.