Evidence for God from Science

As Jlay pointed out -

The context of Numbers 15:28, 29, 30, 31 comes before Numbers 15:32-36 which are in question here in this discussion. The sin was not unintentional (see verses 28-29). It was presumptuous demonstrating arrogance and swaggering in doing something in order to abolish something i.e pit verses 28-29 with what He was deliberately doing in order to negate the decree.

This person acted presumptuously – deliberately testing the Lord for the most impurest of motives.

Luke 4:12, "And Jesus answered and said to him, "It has been said, 'YOU SHALL NOT TEMPT THE LORD YOUR GOD.' "
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Hey JLay,

I think the question is specific as to Christ's Humanity and whether he existed in Human Form prior to entering Mary's womb as taking on Human flesh.

I haven't considered or worried about it. My inclination is to believe that the process described In Phil 2:5-11 is specifically noting at the time of the incarnation or conception within Mary's womb.

I suppose one might have to consider that this could have occured earlier and would account for some of the assumed appearances of Christ in the OT.

It's somewhat of a moot point to me as I don't see where it makes any real difference, but apparently some who have considered it more than I, based on K's answer see some significance to it and I'm interested to know more about it.

blessings,

bart

Gotcha,

I guess I was addressing this two-fold. The heart of the objection is trying to say Christ isn't who the bible says He is, because He ordered the killing of man for picking up sticks. It is an attempt to throw skepticism on who we know as the incarnate Son of God.

What we know that the bible portrays Christ as being a coexistant part of the God-head from before time began. We also know that Christ came into this space and time as a real live human baby. One that had to grow physically and in wisdom. We know that it says that the Word BECAME flesh. And as you sited in Phillipians that Christ relinquished one state of being to take on another.

The question then, is did Christ have a physical body prior to taking on the one that we all know as the incarnate Son of God. Like you, I don't see that it really matters. But I think regardless of what form He was in, I think we can agree that Christ was and is part of the one God who ruled against this stick gatherer.

And the reason people have a problem with this is likely with their own misconceptions about God and His judgments against sin.

And the reason people have a problem with this is likely with their own misconceptions about God and His judgments against sin.

Really? That would be the only reason possible to have a problem with some of what you've said?

Any possibility that you carry any misconceptions about God and how he views and deals with sin?

jlay wrote:

Let me ask you a question: "Do you believe Jesus of Nazareth as a human being did not exist prior of 4-6BC?

John 1:1

The Word always was.

And then, The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. (John 1:14)

John 10:30
Deut 6:4
Mark 12:29

I agree with this. It is the Word who is eternal; it is the Word who became flesh. My point is that Jesus of Nazareth as a human being, was conceived and born two thousands years ago and before that time did not exist as a man/human being.

This is what I am up against.

Muslims love the articles on Answering-Christianity.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/s ... e_myth.htm

Conclusion from the article:

These are just 2 examples the God in the OT ordering the death and destruction of the people. In fact the verses are very explicit; the God of the OT is making it clear that it is HIS SWORD which shall slay the people.
So since Jesus is God, and is the God of the OT, this means that it was Jesus who ordered these killings and it was Jesus who killed all these people! Hence the Christian myth is DEBUNKED. Jesus did kill, and Jesus ordered the killings of women and children, the fact that Christians claim that Jesus never killed anyone is a plane intentional lie by the Christians. We must ask why would the Christians make such a blatant lie? And it also leaves us with another question, which is what else do the Christians lie about? What other myths and propaganda do they create on their made up faith? We can only guess, but no doubt each lie will get caught and exposed.

My position is that Jesus of Nazareth, as a man/human being cannot be read back into the OT. IOW's God is responsible for some of these acts.

My position is also that Jesus did not command us to kill anyone, men, women or children.

Exactly. This is an attempt twist the scriptures to reduce God and His jusgements down to human level so they can call Him a murderer. God's judgments against the stick gatherer, and against the entire world (see Noah) are not the judgments of a man. They are the judgments of the creator God.

A very sad and patheitic attempt to manipulate the scriptures to suit their own ends. If they wish to wrongly handle the word of truth then it will stand against them in judgment. Jesus, as the incarnate Son of God, kept the Law and pleased the Father in everyway.

If we want to split hairs, Jesus has already ordered the destruction of all unbelievers, when the judgment comes. That is already written fact.

Jesus did not command us to kill anyone. God, in His fullness, did exact His judgments upon these people. Just as God the Father exacted His judgment against the sin of mankind at the cross. These folks will either embrace God's gift and receive His forgiveness, or their own ridiculous assertions and perversions of the scriptures will stand against them.

Christian2 wrote:This is what I am up against.

Muslims love the articles on Answering-Christianity.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/s ... e_myth.htm

Conclusion from the article:

These are just 2 examples the God in the OT ordering the death and destruction of the people. In fact the verses are very explicit; the God of the OT is making it clear that it is HIS SWORD which shall slay the people.

So since Jesus is God, and is the God of the OT, this means that it was Jesus who ordered these killings and it was Jesus who killed all these people! Hence the Christian myth is DEBUNKED. Jesus did kill, and Jesus ordered the killings of women and children, the fact that Christians claim that Jesus never killed anyone is a plane intentional lie by the Christians. We must ask why would the Christians make such a blatant lie? And it also leaves us with another question, which is what else do the Christians lie about? What other myths and propaganda do they create on their made up faith? We can only guess, but no doubt each lie will get caught and exposed.

My position is that Jesus of Nazareth, as a man/human being cannot be read back into the OT. IOW's God is responsible for some of these acts. My position is also that Jesus did not command us to kill anyone, men, women or children.

This is a trap... so tell them, when God slays a mortal being, He brings them to face his judgment and after this judgment He still does not murder them but instead confines them as Isaiah 24:22 points out. Therefore, God does not murder anyone in the sense as annihilating them as murdering into non-being state would.

The person who picked up sticks, did it to tempt God by testing what Numbers 15:27, 28, 29, says. Such act is described in Numbers 15: 30, 31 by acting presumptively and despising God’s word. Numbers 15:32, 35 and Numbers 15:36 states the people took the person’s mortal life (Not Christ) thus ushering this person to face God’s judgment.

To stand and face God who knows, what Jeremiah 17:9 and Jeremiah 17:10 states about the heart of men. In verse 10 it states He gives according to the fruit of their doings – notice it does not say God annihilates them into non-being. Jeremiah 17:5, 6 gives clues where: a hot parched salt land not inhabited with good or rain. God does not murder the spiritual essence of a person – he banishes them away from himself. Therefore Father, Son, Holy Spirit cannot be guilty of murder because they do not make cease the being into any type of non-living state.

As 2 Sam 14:14 reveals - we do face a mortal death, but God does not take away life, He does provide a plan in which a banished one can be restored. The restoration comes only through Jesus Christ and His work on the cross. Reject Him - be cut off from God forever. Accept him, be restored.

Therefore say to them: I find your argument spurious and insulting

Then end it with this statement directed directly at them:

How will God judge you for acting presumptively and despising God’s True Word: Jesus Christ?
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Canuckster1127 wrote:I'm going to have to read some Craig. Is there a particular work of his that is better than others to begin with?

To begin with on the topic of...?

A good all-round Christian theological resource is Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview. Regarding God's relationship to time, Craig's God, Time and Eternity (very advanced, at times boring, but worth it in the end).

Reasonable Faith was my first Craig book, but not sure if there is better now. Then there is Craig's website, http://www.reasonablefaith.org/ with many writings.

Christian2 wrote:This is what I am up against.

Muslims love the articles on Answering-Christianity.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/s ... e_myth.htm

Conclusion from the article:

These are just 2 examples the God in the OT ordering the death and destruction of the people. In fact the verses are very explicit; the God of the OT is making it clear that it is HIS SWORD which shall slay the people.
So since Jesus is God, and is the God of the OT, this means that it was Jesus who ordered these killings and it was Jesus who killed all these people! Hence the Christian myth is DEBUNKED. Jesus did kill, and Jesus ordered the killings of women and children, the fact that Christians claim that Jesus never killed anyone is a plane intentional lie by the Christians. We must ask why would the Christians make such a blatant lie? And it also leaves us with another question, which is what else do the Christians lie about? What other myths and propaganda do they create on their made up faith? We can only guess, but no doubt each lie will get caught and exposed.

My position is that Jesus of Nazareth, as a man/human being cannot be read back into the OT. IOW's God is responsible for some of these acts.

My position is also that Jesus did not command us to kill anyone, men, women or children.

Firstly, can I ask a question which may just be a matter of my own ignorance. If Christianity is here debunked, what is the core doctrine being debunked?

For the sake of argument, let us forget the Trinitarian nature of God and assume that it was Jesus alone. If Jesus exercises His sovereign and divine right as God to judge, then where is the issue? I'm a bit lost as to the point or thrust of this argument. What is the "Christ killed" argument meant to prove?

Secondly. I wrote earlier: "... Christ's birth via Mary meant Christ took upon Himself a human bodily form. Yet, this does not necessarily mean that Christ's inherent nature or substance changed since the human image resides within the divine." Allow me the elaborate on this further.

As I try make sense of matters, Christ possesses a "divine image" within which a "human image" is also possessed. However, before Christ's incarnation (except those instances when Christ may have taken on human form, such as wrestling with Jacob), Christ's human nature was not expressed. That is, the essense of Christ (His foundational divine essense) also possessed human "soulish" qualities. Through the incarnation where Christ takes on physical human form, Christ's human nature is expressed. To put a third way, Christ's human nature pre-incarnation was only a "potentiality", but with the physical incarnation Christ's potential humanness was expressed in human fullness.

So, I'm not sure whether this still provides you with a key that refutes what you see as an important Muslim argument? For according to my own understanding, it can still be said that while Christ may have possessed both divine and human natures pre-incarnation, that Christ in His fully expressed human bodily form never killed any one. And thus, Scripture is still affirmed when it says that Christ did not come into the world to judge or condemn the world, but rather to save the world from God's righteous judgement and deserved wrath. (cf. John 3:17)

Furthermore, to believe that Christ as God can never enact divine judgement (pre-incarnation or post-incarnation) is to fail to understand His divine sovereign right. Muslims in my limited experience never seem to get, or perhaps refuse to even try and understand Trinitarian theology. To them it perhaps wreaks too much of the most heinous and unforgivable offense: Shirk.

B. W. wrote:

Christian2 wrote:This is what I am up against.

Muslims love the articles on Answering-Christianity.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/s ... e_myth.htm

Conclusion from the article:

These are just 2 examples the God in the OT ordering the death and destruction of the people. In fact the verses are very explicit; the God of the OT is making it clear that it is HIS SWORD which shall slay the people.

So since Jesus is God, and is the God of the OT, this means that it was Jesus who ordered these killings and it was Jesus who killed all these people! Hence the Christian myth is DEBUNKED. Jesus did kill, and Jesus ordered the killings of women and children, the fact that Christians claim that Jesus never killed anyone is a plane intentional lie by the Christians. We must ask why would the Christians make such a blatant lie? And it also leaves us with another question, which is what else do the Christians lie about? What other myths and propaganda do they create on their made up faith? We can only guess, but no doubt each lie will get caught and exposed.

My position is that Jesus of Nazareth, as a man/human being cannot be read back into the OT. IOW's God is responsible for some of these acts. My position is also that Jesus did not command us to kill anyone, men, women or children.

This is a trap... so tell them, when God slays a mortal being, He brings them to face his judgment and after this judgment He still does not murder them but instead confines them as Isaiah 24:22 points out. Therefore, God does not murder anyone in the sense as annihilating them as murdering into non-being state would.

The person who picked up sticks, did it to tempt God by testing what Numbers 15:27, 28, 29, says. Such act is described in Numbers 15: 30, 31 by acting presumptively and despising God’s word. Numbers 15:32, 35 and Numbers 15:36 states the people took the person’s mortal life (Not Christ) thus ushering this person to face God’s judgment.

To stand and face God who knows, what Jeremiah 17:9 and Jeremiah 17:10 states about the heart of men. In verse 10 it states He gives according to the fruit of their doings – notice it does not say God annihilates them into non-being. Jeremiah 17:5, 6 gives clues where: a hot parched salt land not inhabited with good or rain. God does not murder the spiritual essence of a person – he banishes them away from himself. Therefore Father, Son, Holy Spirit cannot be guilty of murder because they do not make cease the being into any type of non-living state.

As 2 Sam 14:14 reveals - we do face a mortal death, but God does not take away life, He does provide a plan in which a banished one can be restored. The restoration comes only through Jesus Christ and His work on the cross. Reject Him - be cut off from God forever. Accept him, be restored.

Therefore say to them: I find your argument spurious and insulting

Then end it with this statement directed directly at them:

How will God judge you for acting presumptively and despising God’s True Word: Jesus Christ?
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-

Believe me I have tried just about every argument I can think of and I have been at it for about 8 years.

Muslims do not believe the Christ is God.

Muslims believe that Jesus was a good prophet and nothing more.

Muslims do not believe in the concept of the Trinity.

IMO, one of the silliest verses in the Qur'an is this one:

PICKTHAL: the messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. and his mother was a saintly woman. and they both used to eat (earthly) food. see how we make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away! (Surah 5:75)

THIS supposedly coming from the God of Israel, who would have known that Christians believe Jesus is 100% human!

Of course, Jesus had to eat food as a human being. This verse shows me that the Allah in the Qur'an had no conception of the incarnation.

Finally, Muslims do not believe Jesus died on the cross, much less rose from the dead. No, they believe "Allah" saved Jesus by some sort of translation into heaven.

Kurieuo wrote:

Christian2 wrote:This is what I am up against.

Muslims love the articles on Answering-Christianity.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/s ... e_myth.htm

Conclusion from the article:

These are just 2 examples the God in the OT ordering the death and destruction of the people. In fact the verses are very explicit; the God of the OT is making it clear that it is HIS SWORD which shall slay the people.
So since Jesus is God, and is the God of the OT, this means that it was Jesus who ordered these killings and it was Jesus who killed all these people! Hence the Christian myth is DEBUNKED. Jesus did kill, and Jesus ordered the killings of women and children, the fact that Christians claim that Jesus never killed anyone is a plane intentional lie by the Christians. We must ask why would the Christians make such a blatant lie? And it also leaves us with another question, which is what else do the Christians lie about? What other myths and propaganda do they create on their made up faith? We can only guess, but no doubt each lie will get caught and exposed.

My position is that Jesus of Nazareth, as a man/human being cannot be read back into the OT. IOW's God is responsible for some of these acts.

My position is also that Jesus did not command us to kill anyone, men, women or children.

Firstly, can I ask a question which may just be a matter of my own ignorance. If Christianity is here debunked, what is the core doctrine being debunked?

For the sake of argument, let us forget the Trinitarian nature of God and assume that it was Jesus alone. If Jesus exercises His sovereign and divine right as God to judge, then where is the issue? I'm a bit lost as to the point or thrust of this argument. What is the "Christ killed" argument meant to prove?

Secondly. I wrote earlier: "... Christ's birth via Mary meant Christ took upon Himself a human bodily form. Yet, this does not necessarily mean that Christ's inherent nature or substance changed since the human image resides within the divine." Allow me the elaborate on this further.

As I try make sense of matters, Christ possesses a "divine image" within which a "human image" is also possessed. However, before Christ's incarnation (except those instances when Christ may have taken on human form, such as wrestling with Jacob), Christ's human nature was not expressed. That is, the essense of Christ (His foundational divine essense) also possessed human "soulish" qualities. Through the incarnation where Christ takes on physical human form, Christ's human nature is expressed. To put a third way, Christ's human nature pre-incarnation was only a "potentiality", but with the physical incarnation Christ's potential humanness was expressed in human fullness.

So, I'm not sure whether this still provides you with a key that refutes what you see as an important Muslim argument? For according to my own understanding, it can still be said that while Christ may have possessed both divine and human natures pre-incarnation, that Christ in His fully expressed human bodily form never killed any one. And thus, Scripture is still affirmed when it says that Christ did not come into the world to judge or condemn the world, but rather to save the world from God's righteous judgement and deserved wrath. (cf. John 3:17)

Furthermore, to believe that Christ as God can never enact divine judgement (pre-incarnation or post-incarnation) is to fail to understand His divine sovereign right. Muslims in my limited experience never seem to get, or perhaps refuse to even try and understand Trinitarian theology. To them it perhaps wreaks too much of the most heinous and unforgivable offense: Shirk.

Kurieuo, Muslims do not believe the Christ will be the judge on Judgment Day. The Christ has no "sovereign right."

This nice post came from a Muslim:

You will submit to Quran when Jesus (pbuh) comes back, otherwise Jesus (pbuh) will either chop you head off or make you a dhimmis. I LOVE JESUS (PBUH).

The above should make you understand a little....

Jesus (pbuh) will shed so much blood of the kuffars.... that the bones kuffars and Christians will rattle.... and after that he will establish peace. I LOVE JESUS (PBUH).

News Flash.... News Flash.... News Flash.... News Flash.... News Flash.... Your Jesus will abandon you and kill you if you do not follow what I follow and what he will follow.... Jesus (pbuh) has no choice.... Jesus (pbuh) will follow Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to the letter.

This Muslim made this post and then left.

He did say that he could not believe in a God who depended on anything and Jesus had to depend on His mother for food and she had to change His diapers. He cannot believe in the God who wore diapers.

I'm in a conversation now with a Muslim who insists the concept of the Trinity was decided at the Council of Nicea. I can handle this one though. He has been shown that the concept of the Trinity is Biblical and has been shown the reason Constantine brought the council together. He's been shown Trinitarian quotes before the Council was called. He is not buying any of it.

Muslims are extremely hard to reach. I can try, but the work in reaching Muslims has to come from the work of the Holy Spirit.

Kurieuo wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:I'm going to have to read some Craig. Is there a particular work of his that is better than others to begin with?

To begin with on the topic of...?

A good all-round Christian theological resource is Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview. Regarding God's relationship to time, Craig's God, Time and Eternity (very advanced, at times boring, but worth it in the end).

Reasonable Faith was my first Craig book, but not sure if there is better now. Then there is Craig's website, http://www.reasonablefaith.org/ with many writings.

I have Craig's book, "Reasonable Faith." I also have his book, "The Son Rises."

He wrote a segment in the book, "Why I Am A Christian" by Geisler & Hoffman.

He was also interviewed in the book, "The Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel.

Christian2 wrote:Kurieuo, Muslims do not believe the Christ will be the judge on Judgment Day. The Christ has no "sovereign right."

Yeah, I know, but I did not intend my response for the Muslim. Yet, if they cross the lines to attack Christian theology, then it is Christian theology they must fairly accept as a defense.

C2 wrote:...

Muslims are extremely hard to reach. I can try, but the work in reaching Muslims has to come from the work of the Holy Spirit.

I'd agree. I am yet to see one conversion as a direct and immediate link to debating.

While important, I sincerely doubt logical arguments/debating is the way, or at least on its own the way to reach a Muslim (or many non-Christians for that matter). I'd really be sincerely interested to hear if you have witnessed otherwise?

As it stands, I believe there is a lot more involved in getting others to see the truth of Christ and the Gospel than mere logical arguments can provide. Working of the Holy Spirit in a person's life as you say, is certainly required to bring about a correct disposition.

Kurieuo wrote:

Christian2 wrote:Kurieuo, Muslims do not believe the Christ will be the judge on Judgment Day. The Christ has no "sovereign right."

Yeah, I know, but I did not intend my response for the Muslim. Yet, if they cross the lines to attack Christian theology, then it is Christian theology they must fairly accept as a defense.

C2 wrote:...

Muslims are extremely hard to reach. I can try, but the work in reaching Muslims has to come from the work of the Holy Spirit.

I'd agree. I am yet to see one conversion as a direct and immediate link to debating.

While important, I sincerely doubt logical arguments/debating is the way, or at least on its own the way to reach a Muslim (or many non-Christians for that matter). I'd really be sincerely interested to hear if you have witnessed otherwise?

As it stands, I believe there is a lot more involved in getting others to see the truth of Christ and the Gospel than mere logical arguments can provide. Working of the Holy Spirit in a person's life as you say, is certainly required to bring about a correct disposition.

I don't know if I have ever reached any Muslim in a debate. I know of one Christian who says he turned around 5 Muslims.

I know of a couple of Muslims who turned themselves around and became Christians. We hear of Muslims coming to Christ through dreams and visions -- the accounts are on the Internet.

The only thing debating a Muslim can do is put doubts in their minds, perhaps leading them to more research and actually reading the Bible.

The biggest obstacle is the "corruption" of the Bible excuse. "It is so corrupted it cannot be trusted, so we don't know what Jesus really said," they might say. I don't believe the Qur'an accuses Jews and Christians of changing the text of the Bible; I believe it does accuse Jews and Christians of misinterpretation. The problem with the Qur'an is that it does not say what was misinterpreted.

Remember when Jesus said: "you have heard before, but I say to you"?

You don't find that in the Qur'an regarding the Bible.

Other than that, my debates with Muslims has strengthened my faith; the debates force me to take another look at Scriptures and I have learned.

Lastly, I think Christians have to be prepared to debate Muslims because some Christians come in contact with them at work for instance. The first step is reading the Qur'an, the Hadiths, and a biography of Muhammad.

I think most Christians are not equipped to debate any Muslims -- some don't even know their own Bible! I worry about children going away to college and discussing religion with Muslims and having the Muslims put doubts into their minds about their Christian faith -- "the Bible is corrupt" -- "Muhammad is in the Bible" -- "Islam is the truth faith, superseding Judaism and Christianity" -- "Jesus was a Muslim" -- "Jesus didn't die on the cross" -- "Jesus never said, I am God, worship me" -- "the Trinity was the result of a vote at the Council of Nicea" -- and on and on and on.

Perhaps these kids come home with all of this and their parents can't help them.