Evidence for God from Science

God is love which would make Love eternal, yes?

FFC wrote:God is love which would make Love eternal, yes?

A is B does not mean B is A. For example, Socrates (A) is a philosopher (B) does not mean a philosopher (B) is Socrates (A).

So if God is love, this does not mean love is God. As such, while God is eternal, and God is love, this does not necessarily mean love is also eternal.

Kurieuo wrote:

FFC wrote:God is love which would make Love eternal, yes?

A is B does not mean B is A. For example, Socrates (A) is a philosopher (B) does not mean a philosopher (B) is Socrates (A).

So if God is love, this does not mean love is God. As such, while God is eternal, and God is love, this does not necessarily mean love is also eternal.

This is true, but God is the source of all things, especially love, which is eternal. All philosophers are not Socrates but all who love are of God.

FFC wrote:This is true, but God is the source of all things, especially love, which is eternal. All philosophers are not Socrates but all who love are of God.

Nicely put there FFC... I like your style... I believe that to be scriptural too.

Gman wrote:

FFC wrote:This is true, but God is the source of all things, especially love, which is eternal. All philosophers are not Socrates but all who love are of God.

Nicely put there FFC... I like your style... I believe that to be scriptural too.

There's a common grace that all humanity shares in regardless of their faith or acknowledgement of God. In that sense, all "love" is of God. In a specific sense however, I think you need to recognize that in I John the type of love being referenced is the "agape" love that is unique to God epitomized in the example of Christ's sacrifice on our behalf.

Remember that the English word love is one of the most overworked words, to the point where it doesn't make the distinctions that the greek does in using many different words to express what we lump together as "love." The idea of brotherly love (phileo) and physical love (eros) are from God as well and have both Godly and unGoldy expressions. Agape however is a quality of love that only truly comes from God. We need to hold that distinction and not allow it to be swallowed up into a loose definition that lumps it in with the other elements that we use the word for.

Does that help?

Canuckster1127 wrote:Does that help?

Clear as mud.... I mean luv...

But can we really say all love comes from God? For example, if two evil people love each other, but hate God. If they love Satan etc. Or if they decide on an evil plan or something. They decide to kill all good people and followers of God. But they love each other and they never leave each other; they always sacrifice for the other person. They love each other, but each other only... and no-one else. But if they are able to sacrifice each other, and think about the other person firstly, how can we not define it as love? The fact they don't love anyone else doesn't mean they're not capable of love amongst themselves. Similarly as when good people love each others amongst themselves and hate the evil, this would be an opposite case. Or is it self-contradictory and loving someone really whilst hating all the rest is impossible? Now if we consider that these 2 people i gave in the example actually believe they're doing the right things... and believe all the rest is evil... does it change anything?

For example I know what it is when a bunch of people who almost swear loyalty one to another - gang against someone else and hate him and those who like him. I've gone through a few examples in my life... (kinda ) hopefully not to that extreme. But there was actually "love" and respect among the group itself but hatred between the groups... Now what would be that? Surely God doesn't like that, but, it is love... and is this a better scenario than if everyone hated ALL the rest and ONLY loved himself? If it weren't 2 groups but each for himself??

Or simply put, when one actually LOVES Satan or some evil being and worships it (or one loves himself) - then can we say that is from God? Are animals capable of love? Maybe yes but not the same type as humans. Agape is not for them; it's reserved for the higher beings only... (I think). Now if one loves someone or something he should not - then could such love be an actual sin and be against God?? I think it could...

I think it might help in our discusions on love, if we identifiy the kind of love we are referring to. Agape, phileo, or eros

madscientist wrote: Or simply put, when one actually LOVES Satan or some evil being and worships it (or one loves himself) - then can we say that is from God? Are animals capable of love? Maybe yes but not the same type as humans. Agape is not for them; it's reserved for the higher beings only... (I think). Now if one loves someone or something he should not - then could such love be an actual sin and be against God?? I think it could...

Actually my understanding, (which Canuckster hit upon) is that true Agape love only comes from God. God is the only one capale of Agape Love. So can people show agape love? .... Yes but only through the Holy Spirit (God). So for a person to show Agape love they must be saved. My understanding is that any good the I do is not me the does it but it os the HS within me. And the HS only shows His agape love through us by His Grace. And we have access to this Grace by faith.(Rom 5:2). And faith comes from hearing the word. (Rom 10:17) God's Grace not only justifies us when we get saved. But this Grace also sanctifies us. We were saved by Grace and we serve by Grace. So only by staying in the word to get the faith to receive Grace can a person ever exhibit Agape love, and then only by listening to the Holy Spirit within us.

Phileo Love is the kind of love defined by being fond of someone, Actually liking a person. And then of course Eros love is the romantic love. Many unsaved married people exhibit love to their partner because of attraction, whether it be physical, emotional or intellectual. Hoopefully all three. But phileo love is not unconditional, it is conditioned upon attraction - the feeling we have from being around this other person.

If someone loves Satan, it is because of attraction, it makes the person feel good. Just like crack cocaine. I am not saying that phileo love is bad, it depends on the object of your attraction.

I think a person can have a phileo love of God because the Word makes them feel good and at the same time time have an agape love for God, just because this person trusts the Word of God and obeys it because He's God. In other words there may be parts of the Bible that we obey even when we do not feel like it, but as I said above, this is the HS within us directing us to obey, it is not us.

Agape love is not conditioned. It is not a feeling or even have anything to do with how one feels. It is a choice to love (care for and encourage growth when directed toward a person, or in the case of God to obey) regardless of how you feel. The closest an unsaved person can probably come to this agape type of love would be a parent for their new born. If you do not care for and encourage growth(love), especailly when they are an infant, they will not grow up. If you do not feed them they will starve and die, if you don't teach them, they will not learn and never understand truth. If you do not encourage them they may become emotioanlly unstable.

I heard one man say "my goal in raising my children is not to give them what they want, it is to teach them to be mature adults, even if they end up hating me from it. I don't want them to hate me, But if thats what it takes to get them to grow up then thats what I would prefer.

I think thats kind of how God loves us. We are all His children and he wants us to become mature adults. But sometimes because of our sinful nature God disciplines us, and some of us blame God for it and run from God or deny that He even exists. But God is showing us Agape love when he disciplines us (whether we are saved or not), because he wants us to grow and learn.

Some interesting thoughts YLTYLT
yeah the fact there are 3 types of love. now agape being unconditional - meaning the being showing it must love another being or thing, or must love EVERYTHING? Now as you said for phileo - because the person is attractive. The thing is, it is sort of unconditional and sort of conditional - cond in the fact we have developed the love, and that maybe when that person stops loving us we stop. But sometimes even if he/she turns ugly and old we still love that person. Is the second love then agape?
And whats the condition? for example, can we show agape to animals and nonliving things? then its also conditional upon what the thing is - ok maybe this was stupid what i said but what is the unconditional? Now does God love someone who is to go to hell? Wouldnt infinite love mean that at any time that person can turn and go to heaven?

Maybe i have experienced it or not - sometimes i feel like there are people who (dont give a *[poop]* - sorry for the expression ) about me; yet i try to respect them and help them wherever they need. Is that agape? However its kinda sad to hear how many people hate each other. They pretend they're all fine and friends, but then hear saying bad things about others. OK i mean i USED to be the same, maybe still kinda am, but have learned (or HS has ) me to try and love them. However i cant say i love all people and all who do evil. But i try to be nice to those who dont necessarily like or respect me. For example someone who has been a real "*******" to me I thought "ok il giva ya a chance" and I behaved as if nothing had happened. But does it mean i have forgiven? And yes i try to love/like people more by agape but not always easy. But at least I have understood why we shoulnt blame so much for errors - i think its okay to say "that person - not my type, hate what he/she does, etc" but not "what a *** i hate him". But that doesnt mean i dont get annoyed or dont feel like disliking some! Jus try to reduce this feeling.

Then there i know are people who think about sex all the time, (i try to stay away!! ) so is that eros? Then also i like a girl (not sexually though!! jus think shes nice etc) so is that phileo? And is eros love? I mean, often people have sex because of the pleasure, and with ppl they hate. For example, I can say someone is "hot" or attractive but i can hate her and although she may make me crazy sexually I hate her because she is dumb, doesnt like me, her way of life or other things. And for music or things or so - is that phileo? That's what I think.

No for Satan i actually didnt mean conditional love, because he is attractive or so - i meant as a way of religion or so - instead of loving God, one loves Satan and hence laughs at God's face etc. I'd consider that agape or that sort - or depends, but love like towards God but instead towards someone who had been opposing Him for a VERY long time.

As for the discipline - why does God want us to be disciplined? OK this may sound as a stupid question, but He could have created us as perfect beings and all in heaven happily. I know this may be an atheist argument against God - but why does God want us to be like Him etc and THEN He saves us? And isnt that sort of a condition? Believe in JC, only THEN you are saved. I understand parents and children - that we must learn how to live - children. However often I feel like that parents who are strict and demanding etc often make their children suffer and due to resentment or how it is called (maybe not right word used) but the fact that if they are too imposing and so this is bad for the kids. Sometimes I would do or not do things just because i was annoyed with the ideology of my parents. ALthough i did do what they asked me to do, I still believe something else to be "right".

Hope these arguments/questions weren't too hard to understnad or answer...

God first loved us, and we then choose to serve Him or not.Salvation comes as a response to the outstretched hand of God(love).We love because He first loved us.

oscarsiziba wrote:God first loved us, and we then choose to serve Him or not.Salvation comes as a response to the outstretched hand of God(love).We love because He first loved us.

Yes, exactly

No for Satan i actually didnt mean conditional love, because he is attractive or so - i meant as a way of religion or so - instead of loving God, one loves Satan and hence laughs at God's face etc. I'd consider that agape or that sort - or depends, but love like towards God but instead towards someone who had been opposing Him for a VERY long time.

What I meant is that people who chose Satan chose him because they are attracted to Him because of our sinful nature and his nature to deceive. Satan usually does not appear to the world as evil. He will appear to us as a solution to our grief and loneliness and distress. The solution sounds so attractive to us that we chose Satan. But if we live by faith - take the word of God over our own sinful desires - and realize that Satan always deceives then then we do not to listen to him.

But Satan is not an omni present being like God is. He cannot be in 2 places at once(Although he does have demons to help him).
So most of our fight is not against Satan and Demons but against our own flesh and sinful nature.

Remember, We are not capable of unconditional love. Only God is.
The only way a person can show unconditional love is through the work of the Holy Spirit. Therefore an unsaved person cannot show pure unconditional love.

Interestingly,
In Ephesions 5:25 Paul instruct Husbands to Love their wives. The word for love here is from the root of agape.

But Strangely enough, in Titus 2:4, wives are instrusted to love their husbands and children, but the word for love used here is based on the root for phileo.

So just to theorize, Since Eph 5 say that men are to love their wives as Christ loved the church (unconditionally), would that mean that our love towards God is conditional upon His Unconditional Love towards us, just like a wife's love toward her husband is conditional upon the husbands unconditional love for her.

I have heard it said that we do not repent because hell is hot we change our minds because God is good.
Romans 2:4
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?


But I think I have diverged off track.....

YLTYLT wrote:What I meant is that people who chose Satan chose him because they are attracted to Him because of our sinful nature and his nature to deceive. Satan usually does not appear to the world as evil. He will appear to us as a solution to our grief and loneliness and distress. The solution sounds so attractive to us that we chose Satan. But if we live by faith - take the word of God over our own sinful desires - and realize that Satan always deceives then then we do not to listen to him.

Ah is it? And as for the deceiving - can Satan actually LOVE truly those who wish to follow him? I mean, does he lure them into thinking he is better and then betray them, or does he not betray them - that he likes the fact they chose him, but they are still in hell... but can Satan truly love someone?

YLTYLT wrote: But Satan is not an omni present being like God is. He cannot be in 2 places at once(Although he does have demons to help him).
So most of our fight is not against Satan and Demons but against our own flesh and sinful nature.

he isnt? hm thats cool OK he cant be. but isnt he omniscient? These 2 kinda go together. The thing with being in more than one place and omniscience (i think) go together. If something is happening, God being present and rescuing someone could simply mean he foreknew the fact, so he arranged the situation so and so. But if one doesnt know everything then... no, omnipresence isnt the result either. And as for the demons - ok yeah, but who are these? Fallen angels? How many? 1, 2, 5, millions? Their status? Power?
And then what can we blame on metaphysics and what to blame on satan or what should we hold God accountable for? For example, we say God isnt responsable for evil. But he allowed it to happen. And he made things as He did. And let's say if someone dies - e.g. murder is it:
a) God took his life - if God did not wish him to die, he would have made situtation different
b) Result of murder - choice of another person, God and/or satan have nothing to do with this
c) Satan and Satan only -or one of his followers/demons
d) Chaos and metaphysics
e) Some other option?
So what is up

YLTYLT wrote: Remember, We are not capable of unconditional love. Only God is.
The only way a person can show unconditional love is through the work of the Holy Spirit. Therefore an unsaved person cannot show pure unconditional love.

So then is it really our choice to love or is it Holy Spirit's? And do all saved people necessarily have to show unconditional love to every higher being there exists (God, angels, people) ?

YLTYLT wrote: Interestingly,
In Ephesions 5:25 Paul instruct Husbands to Love their wives. The word for love here is from the root of agape.

But Strangely enough, in Titus 2:4, wives are instrusted to love their husbands and children, but the word for love used here is based on the root for phileo.

So just to theorize, Since Eph 5 say that men are to love their wives as Christ loved the church (unconditionally), would that mean that our love towards God is conditional upon His Unconditional Love towards us, just like a wife's love toward her husband is conditional upon the husbands unconditional love for her.

Does it then mean that love of husbands towards wives is different to the love of their wives to their husbands? Why? Shouldn't we all be kinda equal? Or is it because these 2 quotes refer to different parts of the Bible?

YLTYLT wrote: I have heard it said that we do not repent because hell is hot we change our minds because God is good.
Romans 2:4
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

That is another interesting thing! Yes that's true... Because once we realize God is there we love Him more. However, sometimes the initial push factor may be the fear of eternal death. That is also the argument against religions... that they were created as a control of people - to keep law & order, because then people should obey etc. Now this is off-topic but relates so much... what is the driving force? And would we still go towards God if there were no hell after death, but the same pleasure? How would we live our lives then? That is the million dollar question!!

madscientist wrote: Ah is it? And as for the deceiving - can Satan actually LOVE truly those who wish to follow him? I mean, does he lure them into thinking he is better and then betray them, or does he not betray them - that he likes the fact they chose him, but they are still in hell... but can Satan truly love someone?

Satan never loves, he may be glad that someone has chosen him over God, but Satan only knows hate. He is dastardly, he is the evil tempter, the great deceiver, and he will do anything in his power to seduce an unbeliever in to following him or to seduce a believer into submitting to their flesh. And he does this by being attractive to the world. But he does not do this by saying "Look at me I'm Satan, and I have the solutions to all you problems." He looks great and beautuful. But this is al part if his insidious Hateful plan. Don't be fooled by it. Satan might give someone something they ask him for, but it is not because he loves them, it is because he hates them so much he does not want them to be influences in any way to go toward the Father. Remember the temporal thing that He may give his follower is nothing in comparison to the eternal torment that his follower which he hates will receive.

YLTYLT wrote: But Satan is not an omni present being like God is. He cannot be in 2 places at once(Although he does have demons to help him).
So most of our fight is not against Satan and Demons but against our own flesh and sinful nature.

madscientist wrote: he isnt? hm thats cool OK he cant be. but isnt he omniscient? These 2 kinda go together. The thing with being in more than one place and omniscience (i think) go together. If something is happening, God being present and rescuing someone could simply mean he foreknew the fact, so he arranged the situation so and so. But if one doesnt know everything then... no, omnipresence isnt the result either. And as for the demons - ok yeah, but who are these? Fallen angels? How many? 1, 2, 5, millions? Their status? Power?

When Lucifer, by pride chose to rejected God. 1/3 of the Angels chose to go with him. So now for every Demon there are 2 Angels.

madscientist wrote: And then what can we blame on metaphysics and what to blame on satan or what should we hold God accountable for? For example, we say God isnt responsable for evil. But he allowed it to happen. And he made things as He did. And let's say if someone dies - e.g. murder is it:
a) God took his life - if God did not wish him to die, he would have made situtation different
b) Result of murder - choice of another person, God and/or satan have nothing to do with this
c) Satan and Satan only -or one of his followers/demons
d) Chaos and metaphysics
e) Some other option?
So what is up

The suffering that happens in the world is the result of sin in the world.
God wants us to Love and Obey Him, follow Him, Trust Him. But none of these things are truely possible with out the negative option. If God wants us to Love him he must give us the option to Hate. If God wants us to Obey him he must give us the option to Disobey. If God wants us to Follow him he must give us the option to Follow something else. If God wants us to Trust Him he must give us the option to Trust something else. Otherwise we would all be the eqivalent of preporgrammed robots, in which case Our love towards God would be an empty love, with no meaning.

madscientist wrote: So then is it really our choice to love or is it Holy Spirit's? And do all saved people necessarily have to show unconditional love to every higher being there exists (God, angels, people) ?

We can chose to Love(phileo), but it is not our independent choice to Agape(love), it is the Holy Spirit within a believer that shows Agape love.

madscientist wrote:

YLTYLT wrote: Interestingly,
In Ephesions 5:25 Paul instruct Husbands to Love their wives. The word for love here is from the root of agape.

But Strangely enough, in Titus 2:4, wives are instrusted to love their husbands and children, but the word for love used here is based on the root for phileo.

So just to theorize, Since Eph 5 say that men are to love their wives as Christ loved the church (unconditionally), would that mean that our love towards God is conditional upon His Unconditional Love towards us, just like a wife's love toward her husband is conditional upon the husbands unconditional love for her.

Does it then mean that love of husbands towards wives is different to the love of their wives to their husbands? Why? Shouldn't we all be kinda equal? Or is it because these 2 quotes refer to different parts of the Bible?

That would seem to make sense in terms of what the world thinks. But maybe the world is wrong.
And although they are different parts of the Bible they were both written by Paul and they are both about husband and wife relationships.

+
I'll add to the discussion a point:

People can have an agape type love for the world as it is written in 1 John 2:15: “Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” ESV

Agape, Agapao, Agapetos, love comes from a these Greek words. This word was used to describe a certain aspect of Love that involves relationship between two people or group that unites and binds one to God and each other. You cannot fake it.

Agape can be used many different ways to express certain individual meanings but the import is relationship — a deep binding mutual self sacrificing relationship.

Galatians 5:6, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working [energeō] through love.” ESV

The bible makes it plain in many verses that faith and love — agape type - go together.

Faith is engergeo through agape type love. Faith loyalty, fidelity, the firm conviction in one who will not betray you and be their and keep their word energeo through Love that brings you into a living relationship that binds two or two parties together as a unity.

The key to understanding agape love is to know it is a relational word used to bring two or more into unity with one another in such a degree that members will reflect this love one to another. It is the type of love that makes loyalty and fidelity possible and a living reality.

When Jesus prayed in John 17: note verse 23 and 26, “23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me…26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them." ESV

Note that this is a loving relational unity being stressed by Christ: To be one with another in a covenant type love proved by sheding of blood. Now the OT example of this style of love is covenant - bound by blood. It is Social community life bound together to love God and love each other as God loves because God shows this love to us first so we can learn to show it to others next.

Note Matthew 18:20, "For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them."

Fallen humanity does not deserve such love but God being true to his own nature — loves. Think on it for a moment: The Lord so Loved that he gave his only son to unite those that believe back to him! He gave the Holy Spirit as a deposit for this purpose — bringing us back into relationship with God as we were originally designed.

Those that love — agape — the world — choose to remain related to its ways and means rejects relationship with God and choose instead to be bound with the world, flesh and the devil. These will be rejected by God.

Think of it like this: You live in the Biltmore Mansion in Ashville NC, someone knocks on your door and says "Hi — I am ready to live with you —and you must let me in cause you say you love everybody. Doesn't matter if I neglected all your invitations as I had the world to attend too and was too busy to get to know you...”

You take one look at him and say, “depart from me and from these premises for I never knew you,” and call the servants to escort the bum off the property never to enter in again. There was no relationship built — no faith to work through that ties one together.

God rejects those whom he does not know that are not bound to him in a 'covenant love' relationship nor 'tied together' by common blood, as such do not belong to him. The bible plainly teaches this. God hates those that hate him. Part of love is also hate malice, evil and every wicked way.

But for those that believe have become bound together with Christ and the Father and Holy Spirit and are tied together with him in his purpose, his moral character, and his life giving deeds and they enter in as He knows you personally. This is relational love, covenantal love, that cements social cohesion in a church community [Church — assembly] to God and each other as well as each individual to God.

Sadly, we do not teach on this subject in the church because such self sacrificing relational love does come with a cost. That cost — self.
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B. W. wrote:+
Sadly, we do not teach on this subject in the church because such self sacrificing relational love does come with a cost. That cost — self.

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...it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me (Gal 2:20) is an easy verse to repeat....but it's a whole different deal to try to live it out each day.