controversial scriptures

[frankbaginski]

The rapture is one of the gatherings (harvest) of souls to heaven. I believe this is before the Tribulation period.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Lord does not set foot on the earth because that is reserved for His second coming.

When Christ arose from the dead He took some of the souls with Him as a first fruits offering to the God Head (father). Scripture does not define this but it would be in keeping with tradition. There were people who rose from their graves.

The people who refuse to take the mark of the beast during the tribulation period gather by the throne of God. This happens during the tribulation period.

The people who did not die in Christ will rise after the tribulation period to be judged.

So the when (going to heaven) depends on when you die and if you are in Christ at that moment. In the case of the rapture, those people alive in Christ at the time do not appear to die but are taken. In much the same way that Enoch was taken.

[jenna]

"Those who refuse to take the mark"? What exactly is the "mark" anyway? Any ideas? I have my own idea, but will not say until I get some more points of view.

[B. W.]

I agree with this. My point is WHEN? The bible clearly says no one has seen heaven. So if that is the reward, when do we go to heaven?

Hmmm, Paul would not agree with your statement...

2 Corinthians 12:1-5, "To be boasting surely is not profitable for me, for I will come to visions and revelations of [the] Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago-whether in body I do not know, or outside the body I do not know, God knows-such a one being carried off to [the] third heaven. 3 And I know such a man-whether in body or outside the body, I do not know, God knows- 4 that he was carried off into Paradise and heard inexpressible [or, sacred] words, which it is not permissible for a person to speak. 5 Concerning such a one I will boast, but concerning myself I will not boast, except in my weaknesses." ALT

[B. W.]

Hi Jen,

We have been discussing this elsewhere and now here. I have shown that the early Church fathers did not teach soul sleep nor does the bible and Jesus did not either. Soul sleep is an invention of man and came from the philosophers.

I stated this before on another thread line and here I go again: the bible teaches that there is, immediately after death, when the soul/spirit leave the body of the departed they are confronted with immediate judgment which determines where they'll spend eternity. This is where soul/spirit wait either in the containment of Hell/sheol, or according to the New Testament the bliss of heaven with the Lord.

Hebrews 9:27 states plainly immediately after death comes this form of judgment. This determines where one will reside in the afterlife. The second judgment involves the resurrection of the body . The second please note, involves: Resurrection. To be resurrected means both body and the spiritual will be rejoined with the body and this is known as the resurrection spoken in Daniel 12. This is the final judgment which in essence means — final commuting of a sentence previously passed. You can rightly say the tri-nature of man is reunited.

Those of you who believe in soul sleep erroneously define the 'resurrection of the dead and final judgment' only as a single solitary judgment [such as in Daniel 12:1-3]and neglect the truths the bible contain about God holding the wicked to account just as it is written in:

Psalms 9:15-17, “The nations have sunk in the pit that they made; in the net that they hid, their own foot has been caught. 16 The LORD has made himself known; he has executed judgment; the wicked are snared in the work of their own hands. Higgaion. Selah 17 The wicked shall be [turned] to Sheol, all the nations that forget God.” ESV

Where is Sheol that God prepared — that place of containment? Deuteronomy 32:22 answers this question: “For a fire is kindled by my anger, and it burns to the depths of Sheol, devours the earth and its increase, and sets on fire the foundations of the mountains.”

Sheol is not the lake of fire so this is not some future event seen from the past. The wicked will be turned into Sheol. Job 26:4-6, “With whose help hast thou uttered words? And whose spirit [breath 5397] came forth from thee? 5 The shades [7496] tremble [2342-twist, whirl, dance, writhe, fear, tremble, travail, be in anguish, be pained] beneath the waters and the inhabitants thereof. 6 The nether-world is naked before Him, and Destruction [11-Abbadon - a place where ruination is brought out, or drawn out of a person — exposing a person as he/she really is - their moral rot slowly uncovered] hath no covering [3682-concealment, masking].” JPS

Now, What did Jesus declare about the afterlife?

Look again at what Jesus said as recorded in John 5:24-29 Jesus stated this in verse 25: "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God…”

What does 'is now here' mean if it does not mean 'is now here'?

How do you who believe in soul sleep deal with what is recorded in Matthew 27: “52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.” ESV

Well according to those who believe in any of the varied doctrines of soul sleep — Matthew 27:52-53 could not have happened because it is not the time of the end! However, what Jesus said is true: "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God…” Yes the dead hear and are not asleep, nor do they wait in silent blissful slumber for a future event. What does 'is now here' mean if it does not mean 'is now here'?

What of Paul's words in:

Philippians1:23, “I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.” ESV

2 Corinthians 5:1-8, “For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, 3 if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. 4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened--not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.” ESV

See also 2 Corinthians 12:1-6

In conclusion — this is what God's word reveals: There is judgment commencing immediately after one dies, then during the interim one's soul/spiritual self waits till the final commuting of their sentence when spirit, soul, and body are re-joined during the resurrection of the dead at a future date and time.

Does eternal, everlasting pause? Stop? Cease? For a short time and continue later? If so, then it is not eternal life, nor is it eternal in any senses of the meaning of the word.

As Christians, we have the promise and where Christ is there we will be also as Jesus so said “Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.” John 17:24 - ESV

Again what Paul writes makes it clear: 2 Corinthians 5:1-8, “For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.”

Note — Eternal in the heavens — not pausing, not sleeping, not stopping, but rather eternal just as Christ said: “Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.” John 17:24 — ESV

Jen — soul sleep is wrong. It is not bible — it is heresy.

If you truly have an open mind — please go on the internet and look up what you church movement founder taught and believed — go to the Christian Research Institute — CRI and type in his name. The group you associate with is not right but rather cultic. For me not to warn you of this would not be love.
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[jenna]

B.W., I have stated in another post that I have retracted my belief on soul sleep. I no longer believe this, since the bible teaches soul death, not sleep. I have an answer pending on your earlier post. Meanwhile, in all love and respect, I realize that many may believe that the church founder was a cult leader, but this is simply not true. Jesus Himself said that His "church" would be a "little flock", and would be persecuted and hated by the world. He also stated that Satan was the "god" of this world, and that he has deceived THE WHOLE WORLD. If you believe this, do you not also think it possible that you may have been decieved by Satan? I know I have been, many times, and still am to this day. That is why I post my thoughts and ask questions here, so I may know the truth. God bless.

[frankbaginski]

Jen,

The mark can be a few things. The first is his number, not your number. So that takes out your SSN and the like. It is a symbol of him. The other mark can be a mark on the hand or forehead, this is where he is wounded and to take on this mark is an acceptance of him. The mark is not the issue it is the acceptance that seals your fate. This is consistanmt with the rest of the scripture.

Soul sleep. I do not think it happens. Which means I think we are aware of whats going on around us as we wait. This may just be called sleep. We dream in sleep and this may be the spiritual experience we have as we wait.

[jenna]

The mark IS an issue, since how will we know to refuse it if we don't even know what it is? The mark of the beast and his number are two separate things. Also, about soul sleep, I don't believe in this, since the bible states that the dead know nothing. So we are not actually in a state of awareness when we die.

[frankbaginski]

Jen,

I think a closer reading tells about the dead not knowing anything about the living. The evil demons that live on the earth are a different issue. They know a bunch about what is going on. Christ says don't listen to them.

We are told not to take a mark on us. In fact we are told not to have a tatoo. This body is not ours but a gift from God that we possess on a temp basis. In a similiar view we do not own our kids but are the vehicle in which they are made. It all makes sense.

[jenna]

Yes we are told not to take a mark on us, which means a tattoo. I actually have two of them, put on me before I came to Christ. Does this mean I have "the mark"? I don't personally think so. And where do evil demons come into play here? Please clarify. And the verse about the dead says "For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing." This is not talking about the living knowing about the dead, but simply that we will die. It also plainly states that the dead don't know anything, about anything.

[frankbaginski]

Jen,

Having a tatoo does not stop you from Christ. I know in my heart that you already know this. Cain slew Abel, is Cain in heaven, I think so. So if a murderer can go to heaven what can some ink do. The mark of the beast is the acceptance of him that is the issue. If you place a mark on you for the purpose of accepting Satan then you are in big trouble. Tribulation or not.

[jenna]

No, having a tattoo is not the mark of the beast, as i stated above. There has to be a certain type of "mark" that sets us apart from the rest of the world. I guess what I am asking here is whether this "mark" is a physical one, or a spiritual one?

[Canuckster1127]

No, having a tattoo is not the mark of the beast, as i stated above. There has to be a certain type of "mark" that sets us apart from the rest of the world. I guess what I am asking here is whether this "mark" is a physical one, or a spiritual one?

We don't know. DIfferent people have different opinions on the matter.

[FFC]

No, having a tattoo is not the mark of the beast, as i stated above. There has to be a certain type of "mark" that sets us apart from the rest of the world. I guess what I am asking here is whether this "mark" is a physical one, or a spiritual one?

We don't know. DIfferent people have different opinions on the matter.

It's true we don't know. One thing I'm pretty sure about though is that no one who truly knows and believes in Christ for salvation will get this mark. God will give, those who are His, the grace to face the circumstances that arise, in the event that we have to make the decision. As far as whether it is physical or spiritual, I believe it is both...as is everything else in our walk with Christ.

[jenna]

No, having a tattoo is not the mark of the beast, as i stated above. There has to be a certain type of "mark" that sets us apart from the rest of the world. I guess what I am asking here is whether this "mark" is a physical one, or a spiritual one?

We don't know. DIfferent people have different opinions on the matter.

Well you're certainly a big help in this. Try not to give a big description next time.

[Canuckster1127]

Short sentences are sometimes the most powerful.

I've been on the prophecy roller coaster many times and I think it is important obviously or God would not have dedicated so much of His Word to it.

I'm less inclined to worry about many issues in that regard now and I think that is either a reflection of some maturity on my part or I suppose, some could see it as some sort of spiritual deficiency as well.

I tend to be more concerned with those spiritual issues that impact my daily walk. I figure if I'm right with God and walking with Him, then I have all the resources I need to face whatever the future may hold. I seek to know the prophesy so that I'm equipped, but I'm much less inclined to argue with people about it. It's been my observation that groups that emphasize prophesy are easily captured by leaders who become their authority as to what the prophesies mean and it becomes a tool of fear or power that builds the leader up and reduces the emphasis upon a healthy daily Christian walk.

I'm not that clever. I figure prophesy is a general guide to us for what to watch for and to be motivated to spread the good news while there is still time.

The mark of beast may be a metaphore or it may be a real thing. Either way, the best thing I can do is walk close with Christ and He'll give me the power I need to face that challenge if it takes place in my lifetime.

Have no worries for tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Sufficient for today are the challenges and worries without borrowing against them tomorrow.