Evidence for God from Science

An objection we've all dealt with before. In the meantime, John 3:16 STILL says WHOEVER BELIEVES has EVERLASTING life. It does NOT say whoever believes AND (insert condition) has life which may or may not be everlasting. Everlasting life, by definition, lasts forever. If you can lose it, then it isn't everlasting.

So, either Jesus told the truth and everyone who believes is saved (not might be), or Jesus is wrong and NOT everyone who believes is saved. You just have to decide who you believe. To deny OSAS is to deny Jesus' words, and therefore, it is to deny the Gospel itself.

Jac3510 wrote:An objection we've all dealt with before. In the meantime, John 3:16 STILL says WHOEVER BELIEVES has EVERLASTING life. It does NOT say whoever believes AND (insert condition) has life which may or may not be everlasting. Everlasting life, by definition, lasts forever. If you can lose it, then it isn't everlasting.

So, either Jesus told the truth and everyone who believes is saved (not might be), or Jesus is wrong and NOT everyone who believes is saved. You just have to decide who you believe. To deny OSAS is to deny Jesus' words, and therefore, it is to deny the Gospel itself.

Jesus never said OSAS. The implication is such...

Can a person simply believe and live as they wish?
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Of course He said OSAS. I already addressed that in my last post. How long does everlasting life last?

A person who is unsaved is dead. When they are born again, they are now alive (regenerated). They have life. They have passed out of death and into life. If they lose that salvation, that means they have lost life, which means they died. But if you died, then the life you had was not EVERLASTING life, because you died.

Secondly, John 3:16 says nothing about how you live. It says whoever BELIEVES. The least you could do is argue that if you stop believing, then you stop meeting the requirements of John 3:16. But we are dealing with Jesus' words HERE. Do you, Bavarian, believe what Jesus says, that EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES will NOT perish but HAS EVERLASTING life?

If you don't believe that, then it's not me you are disagreeing with. It's Jesus. You are saying He is wrong, which is what I said in my first post here. To deny OSAS is to deny the Gospel.

Jac3510 wrote:Personally, I think to deny OSAS is to deny the gospel. John 3:16 says whoever believes will not perish but has everlasting life. Those who deny OSAS deny John 3:16. They're preaching "Andy's Gospel." That is, a man has to believe AND HE has to repent/stay in his faith/be baptized/manifest good works/whatever. They're just saying Jesus is mistaken:

"No, Jesus, you are wrong. You didn't get it all in there. It's not whoever believes, because there are some who believe who haven't turned from their sins. It's actually whoever believes AND commits their life to you . . . that's the gospel, Jesus. Get it right!"

God saves by grace or not at all.

Great point Jac!

It also comes down to how one interprets the word translated 'believe.' With that some define believing as faith-ing. Those that are saved do hear the master's voice and follow him becoming transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit, as it is written:

2 Co 3:18, “…And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.” ESV

People usually make the case of a new believer saying a sinner prayer — is he or she saved? Only God knows so rejoice that the sinner at least prayed believing!

What I find interesting is how those that believe change. I mean really change. Whole lives take another direction for the better. Such hear another way and live that way. They learn by stumbling but continue on and despite any and all harsh trials and hardships they grow and grow in deep love for God and others.

I have seen such that really believe go through stages, sometimes a Pharisee stage or self righteous stage yet the Lord teaches them this is not his way and they turn away from this and instead become more kind and benevolent than before. Some get bound to a works mentality, yet the Good Shepherd lets them burn out and weary so they'll return to him and his Grace! I have seen others get it right the first time around and move on deeper into Christ and his ways. (If only that were me!)

You can say that those that really believe have the kinks knocked Holy out of them!

Another Group

Then you have those that do not believe but only think they believe. There is no change. Hardship comes and such walk away trying another life venue forsaking the Lord with platitudes of self justification. Or the devil steals the word because they refuse to anchor their roots to Christ. Others I have seen whose motives are for self glory and selfish prosperity turning them away from the Lord. Still others I have run across are so in love with their ideas and philosophies that they refuse to truly believe in Christ unless Christ conforms to their enlightenment. Of such that are like this, claiming that they are Christians, do indeed fall away. People term such as Christians losing their faith. Did such really believe in Christ or believe in something else that saves not?

In the light of the Gospel those that believe are saved and those that do not, are not, and were never saved. Basically there are only two kinds of people — those that truly believe in Christ and those that do not. Why do I make the distinction between truly believing and just believing? Simple, just believing believes in anything and can end up blowing hither and thither wherever the winds of life blow.

True believing lives what is believed. In the Christian sense this is being transformed as 2 Co 3:18 states, “…And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.” ESV

Last Point

Matthew 25:24-27, "He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed...”

The Master replied in Matthew 25:27, "Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest."

There is a difference in those that truly believe and those that believe in something else. The unfaithful servant believed that the Master was hard and unjust reaping where he did not sow, and gathering where he scattered no seed. How unfair he thought and just buried what he had so he could live his life as he wanted and still get in. Very selfish indeed.

All the Master asks is to invested his gift and let it draw just a little interest - a little change in our lives!

Question: Whom do we want to believe?
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I think you misunderstand me...I don't deny the gospel...lol. Some of you may wish that...I know.

Simply read Christ's words in John 15: 1-10.

*IF* a person is saved FOREVER once he/she believes, then what is the point in these verses? How is it there are branched "in me" that bear no fruit? Why the statement "Remain in me, and I will remain in you."? Why can't a branch bear fruit UNLESS it remains in Him? How is this; "If anyone does not remain in me..."?

Salvation is gained and lost solely by the sinner, God can neither force one to believe, NOR CAN HE FORCE ONE TO REMAIN! God knocks...he doesn't just fling the door open. He enters when given permission and WILL exit when asked to exit.

Salvation is gained and lost/given up by free will...if this were not true then Christ is a liar, because clearly in the parable of the farmer (Christ's words btw), Matt. 13:1-9, clearly some have accepted salvation...and then what happened??
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No, I understand you perfectly. Do you believe that there are contradictions in the Bible? Of course not. So if you present a verse that "proves" you can lose your salvation, you still have to deal with John 3:16, which says you can't. John 15 is one of the easiest ones to deal with. I'm not going to get into a debate with you over one three hundred different verses mean, because when I offer one interpretation, you'll just run to another.

I'm making the same point I've made from the beginning:

John 3:16 says that every single person who BELIEVES (not believes AND) has--RIGHT NOW--everlasting life. Not temporary life. Everlasting life. It is emphasized by saying that they will NOT perish. You believe, you have life. Period. Now, that's what Jesus said. You can deny His words all you want and try to use Scripture to back up why you are saying that He is wrong there. But the fact is that you are saying He is wrong.

Either you believe Jesus gives everlasting life to all who believe, or you do not believe that He gives everlasting life to all who believe. In your case, you believe (apparently) that He gives contingent life, not to all who believe, but to those who believe and meet other conditions. So you don't believe Jesus' words.

You deny the Gospel. Now, that's between you and God. Not you and me.

Jac3510 wrote:No, I understand you perfectly. Do you believe that there are contradictions in the Bible? Of course not. So if you present a verse that "proves" you can lose your salvation, you still have to deal with John 3:16, which says you can't. John 15 is one of the easiest ones to deal with. I'm not going to get into a debate with you over one three hundred different verses mean, because when I offer one interpretation, you'll just run to another.

I'm making the same point I've made from the beginning:

John 3:16 says that every single person who BELIEVES (not believes AND) has--RIGHT NOW--everlasting life. Not temporary life. Everlasting life. It is emphasized by saying that they will NOT perish. You believe, you have life. Period. Now, that's what Jesus said. You can deny His words all you want and try to use Scripture to back up why you are saying that He is wrong there. But the fact is that you are saying He is wrong.

Either you believe Jesus gives everlasting life to all who believe, or you do not believe that He gives everlasting life to all who believe. In your case, you believe (apparently) that He gives contingent life, not to all who believe, but to those who believe and meet other conditions. So you don't believe Jesus' words.

You deny the Gospel. Now, that's between you and God. Not you and me.

Then by your theology, Satan is saved...thank you. Now we can end this discussion.

Ok...I deny the gospel...if that makes you feel better...
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NIV - Mark 4:16-19 - Christ speaking wrote:Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Last only a short time? Quickly FALL AWAY? Making it unfruitful?
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Show me where demons are offered salvation by believing, and I'll concede that Satan is saved. With reference to Mark, again, it is a very easy passage from my perspective, but I told you, I'm not going to get into Scripture wars. I'll concede your argument for the sake of the broader point:

1. Mark says that a man can lose his salvation
2. John 3:16 says that a man cannot lose his salvation
3. Therefore, the Bible contradicts itself.

That's your choice. Deny the Gospel, or deny inerrancy (or both). You have to decide whether or not you believe what JESUS says, Bavarian. You can quote all the other Scripture at me that you want, and I'm just going to hand you the words of Jesus:

"Whoever believes in Me will not perish, but has everlasting life."

You don't believe His words. That's your problem. Take that up with Him, not me. I just hope you get around to believing the Gospel one of these days for your own sake, and for the sake of the people you teach.

Jac3510 wrote:"Whoever believes in Me will not perish, but has everlasting life."

Name one individual that believes in Christ more than Satan...

It's convenient for you to avoid scripture...scriptural words attributed to Christ...and reconcile them in the intelligent mind the Creator gave you, but since you don't want to discuss how it is scripture can *seem* to contradict itself yet remain true, we'll just believe as you do...that Satan, who very much believes in Christ, is a saved being and has everlasting life. "Even the demons believe..." The verse does read, "whoever" right?
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Like I said, show me where demons are offered salvation. John 3:16 is directed to human beings (he's talking to those born in the flesh. Does that apply to Satan?). I've dealt with every other verse you've mentioned elsewhere on these boards. You can find them if you like.

In the meantime, you may as well just admit that you don't believe John 3:16 because you can't seem to reconcile it with the way you view the rest of Scripture. If John 3:16 is the Gospel, then you are telling me that you don't believe the Gospel.

Don't you think the Pharisees who didn't believe the Gospel cited Scripture to prove their point? You just have to decide if you are going to believe Jesus or not. I wish you would.

Jac3510 wrote:Like I said, show me where demons are offered salvation. John 3:16 is directed to human beings (he's talking to those born in the flesh. Does that apply to Satan?). I've dealt with every other verse you've mentioned elsewhere on these boards. You can find them if you like.

In the meantime, you may as well just admit that you don't believe John 3:16 because you can't seem to reconcile it with the way you view the rest of Scripture. If John 3:16 is the Gospel, then you are telling me that you don't believe the Gospel.

Don't you think the Pharisees who didn't believe the Gospel cited Scripture to prove their point? You just have to decide if you are going to believe Jesus or not. I wish you would.

I don't think I like the way you keep accusing me of not believing in Jesus especially when I'm citing Christ Himself...the gospel, btw is not belief in Christ, the GOSPEL is that what is required of one for salvation HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE...the requirements for salvation are fulfilled IN CHRIST. That, my friend in Christ, is the Gospel. The Gospel is summed up in John 3:16, and I do believe those words, however, one does not "simply believe" and be saved when the rest of scripture is quite clear that unless one dies immediately after claiming Christ, there is something that follows that *proves* the believer's sincerity. One need only read a few verses past John 3:16 to see ONE example of this truth...that "whoever lives by the truth comes into the light." Certainly one can conclude that this TRUTH is Christ, but then one must also reconcile the part about living by this truth. How, I ask you, does one "live belief in Christ"? Is it as elementary as believe and live however one pleases? Does the life of a non-believer change immediately upon becoming a believer? In a sense, yes, but literally, no. In fact, doesn't it become more burdened? Someone mentioned some thorns or something...I can't remember exactly.

Life does not become a bed of roses upon believing in Christ...in fact doesn't He say something to the effect, "If they persecuted me, they will persecute you..."? Could that be considered a thorn in life? Being a believer, how does one "fall away" as I suggested through scripture a few posts up? Certainly OSAS means once you're in the arms of Christ, you can't fall away...but darn the luck...Christ mentions falling away. Either Christ is wrong or this OSAS "theology" is wrong.

Like you mentioned to me, you're gonna have to decide whether you believe Christ's words or not.
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Like I said, show me where demons are offered salvation. John 3:16 is directed to human beings (he's talking to those born in the flesh. Does that apply to Satan?).

The same would apply for angels. Yet since both angels, fallen or other, have free-will just as we who are born of the flesh do, they have chosen a "side".

It is intersetingly different, however, that we, when we stumble out of grace and away from fellowship from Christ, can ask for forgiveness and be welcomed back with open arms, and our sins are remembered no more. I wonder why the same wouldn't apply to fallen angels?

Because they aren't made in God's image.

What makes man savable is that very fact, that he alone is in God's image. Salvation is about the restoration of fallen man to his initial state and confirming him in that righteousness. Obviously, angels/demons (including Satan) have no part in that.

And how is a man saved? Jesus says it is by believing in Him. So, we have have to decide if we believe Him or not. If we do, we are saved. If we don't, we aren't. Sadly, many people don't, and they try to use the Bible to contradict Jesus. But that was going on with the Pharisees, so we shouldn't really be surprised.

Jac3510 wrote:Because they aren't made in God's image.

What makes man savable is that very fact, that he alone is in God's image. Salvation is about the restoration of fallen man to his initial state and confirming him in that righteousness. Obviously, angels/demons (including Satan) have no part in that.

And how is a man saved? Jesus says it is by believing in Him. So, we have have to decide if we believe Him or not. If we do, we are saved. If we don't, we aren't. Sadly, many people don't, and they try to use the Bible to contradict Jesus. But that was going on with the Pharisees, so we shouldn't really be surprised.

It's convenient for you to pick and choose when to promote ONE verse as the only source of truth...and when one must use all scripture to find truth. I guess you have the priviledge of this that from one verse, you can conclude that the 'whoever' is only human when nothing in the verse suggests only human belief...we are sticking simply to John 3:16, right?
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