Evidence for God from Science

Actually, much of the Old testament reveals much of God's grace.

For instance, read through Judges. The recurring theme is that God delivers His people, they reject HIm, get into trouble, and yet he repeatedly delivers them again.

His grace IS shown throughout the OT, you just have to read through it.

Judge!!! It is an aboslute horror story. Judge 19. A guy gives his wife to a bunch of guys because he is too coward to go himself. His wife his raped multiples times. Then in the morning he find her barely alive, bring her home then cut her in 12 pieces!!! Wow good morality indeed. Gen. 34 is a good story also, with high morality. Kings 18 too and Esther 9.
No thanks i've got enough of horror and murders. I prefer Jesus who doesn't kill but forgive and love and doesn't say go kill your enemy i'll help you! I'll stay with psalms

Lufia wrote:Judge!!! It is an aboslute horror story. Judge 19. A guy gives his wife to a bunch of guys because he is too coward to go himself. His wife his raped multiples times. Then in the morning he find her barely alive, bring her home then cut her in 12 pieces!!! Wow good morality indeed. Gen. 34 is a good story also, with high morality. Kings 18 too and Esther 9.
No thanks i've got enough of horror and murders. I prefer Jesus who doesn't kill but forgive and love and doesn't say go kill your enemy i'll help you! I'll stay with psalms

The preservation of historical events doesn't necessarily mean they are endorsed or promoted as ethical examples and there's also a lot of cultural issues to work through in some of them as well.

It is difficult in places.

Ignoring it however isn't a particularly strong option.

Read it again,

I never said that the people were great or honorable, in fact *that's* the message of Judges. The people stray, worship idols, do horrible things, and then plead to God to save them when they are immersed in the consequences of their actions.

Time after time, God delivers them through Judges, only to have them reject HIm again and again.

Judges is actually a reflection of the grace that you think of when contemplating Christ in our lives. Think of the horrible times we have strayed, even after accepting Christ, sinning, placing multiple things above Christ (idols), making unwise decisions, and then coming back time after time to Christ, just like the prodigal son.

The Old Testament IS brutal, people are brutal, this is what the sinful world produces. Throughout the OldTestament you see God sending messages and messengers to establish the law, to establish the covenant, and to provide prophets to establish the hope of the messiah.

Although it may seem like the New Testament stands on its own, a right understanding of the Old Testament is an incredible testimony to God's steadfast love to His people, His sovereignty, and His incredible plan for HIs people.

One song that really encapsulates the Old Testament is Michael Card's "Then they will know"

Then They Will Know
(by Michael Card)
(A song of God's inner life)
----------------------------
I will speak
I will wait
I will send prophets among them
That they might hear
That they might see
And understand how
much I love them

Then they will know
that I am Father
They they will know I am Lord
They'll walk with Me
And be My people
I'll walk with them as their God
As their God

I will strike
I will scourge
And carry out vengeance upon them
But I will heal
The wounds I make
And tenderly take them back to me
[ Find more Lyrics at www.mp3lyrics.org/8csv ]

Then they will know
that I am Father
They they will know I am Lord
They'll walk with Me
And be My people
I'll walk with them as their God
This is heaven
This is salvation
This is their great hope and Mine

He will come
My own Son
A Word faithful hearts
can't help hearing
And by His death
With His last breath
A Father's
forgiveness comes
flowing

Then they will know
That I am Savior
I am Redeemer and Friend
Immanuel
The God who is with them
The God who gives all He can
He is salvation
He is the kingdom
To know Him is paradise
Then they will know
that I am Father
They they will know I am Lord
I am Lord

Yes exactly what i started... some years ago, got to Lev or Num somewhere then stopped. Also liked the Catechism book when i was 9! got that as a present from my godparents after my first communion and i read that book like a crazy freak read like 3 quarters of it but i was 9 years old!!! seemed weird for my parents but anyway.
Then read the children's Bible like 2 times when i was about similar age. So know some of the "nicer" stories like David and Goliath etc and remember some but that's not the word to word Bible. Now i set myself to read it all. So far I am on 2Samuel. As i read yes i have questions...

Nice to see you here Lufia and that u posted the Judges 19 thing. I also can't understand - it did seem cowardice to me. Was this man punished? Moreover, what shocked me was next... why the Benjamites had to be punished and were almost entirely wiped out just because those evil men who came to rape the woman were from there? Why not punish them but the entire nation? Were not Benjamites their brother so why they had to kill them? Just because of a few... that's what i can't understand. Also why they had to kill a whole part of nation who didnt show up on Assembly and then slain all except for virgin women. If that isn't cruel, brutal then I don't know what isn't. I guess i can go on the street and kill those who i feel like... including those who are my enemies, who hold a grudge against me and those who have killed someone i liked...

Next, huge questions with David and Saul. Why was Saul made king and when he did not show anger but showed mercy to Amalekite I think (sorry reading Bible in non-English language) or what nation he has disobeyed God and had to be punished? Murder is much worse, so was hatred. So why was God so strict on him showing sort of mercy to the king and the sheep or what they had? Then also why were there fights between David and Saul? And the biggest question of all... IS NOT REVENGE A SIN??? When Saul was going after David, david spared him 2 times. Wasn't jealousy/envy and hatred a sin? Now David chose to spare his enemy. But then david took revenge on Saul's son Jonatan or also Isboselat or what it's called in English... It even says "avenges" the death. So why then David told the others to kill those who killed them?

On 1 occasion (1Sam28) there's something they get Samuel's spirit but what's that?? isn't that necromancy or what and isn't a sin? NOw if that even exists nowadays who knows what magic is all about

Was discussed somewhere else in "War" I think if you can kill if your life in danger, or have to. Looks like David was in great danger by Saul; yet spared him. Now would it be a sin if he killed him? He did now however, but then killed that who said who killed him. Is that mercy or fear or what? It was vengeance; and Jesus taught us not to do that but to "love our enemies". Saul was David's enemy, but why then David curses his enemies? I read through some Psalms and it seems that we should curse those who curse us and bless those who bless us. Jesus teaches us to hate our enemies... so??
Also was an example when someone came and took David's wives and possessions away but did not kill them. Now that's not nice but murder is worse. If no-one was killed why David went and avenged the death of those? Did he actually kill those who took them? So they spared their lives but David had to go and kill them? God mostly ordained death of everyone so this was merciful for them just to take them away and not kill a single one of them...
Also, looks like the accounts given on killing Saul differ from 1Sam31 and 2Sam1. In 1Sam31 it says he told his armorer or someone to kill him, but that he died due to his own sword. In 2Sam1 someone comes to tell David about his death and this man unwillingly i guess says he killed him when he says he killed that who was chosen by God. Read it several times but looks like these 2 are not saying the same thing - so did he die due to his own sword or was he murdered? And was David justified in avenging his death? Revenge is a sin, and those who killed Saul's descendants thought they would please David - so why David acted so proudly and harshly if he was showing mercy to Saul all his life?

Lots of questions that could be discussed somewhere else but if anyone has any answers please share them the more I read the Bible the more questions i have.

Hello, it's funny that when we search God, when we want to believe in God we have a lot of questions. When we believe in God we have also a lot of questions I think it will end only when we see our Lord.

I begin tonight reading the OT. I really hope i'll be able to succeed and go trought it all. And have more questions

wHAt really helped me was to read a CHronological Bible, which organizes evetns chronologically instead in books, since some books overlapped. It really made the events readable and the entiretyy of the OT more cohesive.

hehe good luck Lufia! How far u r so far? I continue slowly now...

Yes it is so. To understand God we have lots of questions. And with it a lot of doubts too! I wonder - if 1 reads the entire Bible do the questions calm down or even more? Bible is a nice book to read to have God's Word, but books which tried to explain it have far more writing in them altogether!! There are many interpretations, connections etc.

Anyway i posted a huge section of questions above... not many since now... anyone up for answring them?? no problem I dont feel like arguing and thinking right now

I successfully read through the entire Bible in the past 6 months.
When I took my daughter to soccer practice several nights per week, I spent those hours reading it in my car.
It all added up, and I got through it page by page, from the beginning to the end.

I wanted to get a chronological feel for it, so I know how events transpired over time (even though I realize that not the entire New Testament is necessarily chronological).

There were parts that were boring and I skimmed lightly through the geneology pages and much of Numbers, but my eyes did read each and every single page of the Bible, and I learned a lot.

I am Catholic, and much of the New Testament gets read over time during our Masses, but I know there were chapters in the New Testament that I saw for the first time, and I loved it.

Funny, I just realized I registered for this board about a year ago, and I believe this is my first ever post!

I have read through the entire Bible several times. Each pass through the Bible brings new insights.

FL

Talk about a thread resurrection!!!!!

I wish! But the way I read parts of the Bible I've never read before is I do it slowly and methodically, highlighting anything that stands out to me in either the Scriptural texts of the footnotes (I read most books this way). And I'll also make notes in the margins. This is very slow but when I go back to a part I've already covered, I can go deeper on parts that I've (at least initially) combed through. Of course, Scripture is full of amazing layers, so one lifetime just isn't enough time to study it. Guess that's where eternity comes in - I'll have plenty of time, not to mention maybe I'll be able to personally track Moses down with questions ("Now, about that reference to 'there was evening, and morning ...").