Evidence for God from Science

Well, it's been 2000 human years, but only 2 of God's days, if you believe that a day with the LORD is a thousand human years as Psalm 90:4, and 2Pet 3:8 attest to. When Paul and John say the time is near or short, I believe the context of the time period they are speaking in are the LORD's days and not human years, so it's only been 2 of God's days since Christ lived and died here on Earth as a man. Otherwise, if it is speaking in human years, it is a very long time indeed.

Hi Katabole, yes from God's perspective it's nothing, but looking from our human perspective it is the longest period of no seemingly direct divine intervention and as I mentioned in my first posting on this subject, Jesus and the apostles talked like the second coming etc was going to happen in their life time. Anyway, I think I understand better now that , now the Holy Spirit has been given, people can get help etc directly from God. Maybe so much time has passed in order for mankind to get to the point where anything is possible for them e.g blow up the earth with nuclear weapons. God is letting things run their sorry course. I'm glad there has been this length of time so I and my children and grandchild could be born.

catherine,

I sometimes think I would like the rapture to happen right now. But then I think about all of those people who will have to go through the tribulation period. I end up casting off any desires of mine.

I follow prophesy and do believe that we will have a nuclear war in the future. Probably in the next 50 years. This would be the Magog invasion of Israel. God personally intervenes.

Hi Frank

Yes, I don't think there will be a full blown nuclear war, maybe a local one. I meant that man's knowledge is such now that he is capable of blowing up this world. He is unlocking more and more knowledge ie quantum mechanics, (I'm waiting with bated breath for the particle collider in Geneva to go into operation) and it's probably no coincidence that there's every chance that during our life time we could suffer via nuclear or biological warfare, that God will step in and once and for all put an end to man's dismal rule. As it says in Daniel, in the end times knowledge will increase.

I know this is not the right thread to place this in but in all due respect, I do not believe in the 'Rapture Theory."

Frank wrote:

I sometimes think I would like the rapture to happen right now. But then I think about all of those people who will have to go through the tribulation period.

The rapture is non-Biblical and is no more than a tradition of men. It began in 1830 from the "so called" vision a mentally ill woman called Margret Macdonald saw. Two preachers were with her and when they heard what she explained, they went with it for monetary gain. For me it is the equivalent of a "get-out-of-jail-free-card" in monopoly. Most people get their understanding of the rapture from 1Thess 4:15-17. But the subject Paul is speaking of, begins in verse 13. Rightfully dividing the word, it is speaking of the Day of the LORD or the day when Christ returns to the earth. The whole reason Paul wrote the second letter to the Thessalonians was because they did not understand the first letter. The rapture theory teaches that Christ will return and remove the believers from earth, so that those who don't believe in Christ will have to suffer a thousand years of tribulation by the antichrist and then Christ will return again. But this is what the Bible teaches

2Thess 2:2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

The great apostacy or turning away from the faith by mass numbers of people happens, then the antichrist( the role that Satan plays at this time) happens after this. Paul is stressing here that the day that Christ returns is not going to happen, until Satan sits in the temple of God, claiming that he is the god of all religions.

This is again spoken of by Jesus in Matt 24

Mt 24:40, Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

The first one is taken by (or deceived by) the antichrist because they believe he's God. The one that is left is awaiting Christ's return.

This is why Jesus continues saying who is the wise servant?

Mt 24:45, Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

When the going gets tough, it is the perfect time for a Christian. Jesus expects us to continue working in the field (the world) see Mt 13, until He returns.

This is also spoken of in the Old Testament. This is an emotional chapter from God but it evokes his true feelings about false teaching and exhorts his righteous indignation. This is not an attack on anyone, just an explanation line by line of the verses in this chapter.

Ezekiel Chapter 13

Ezekiel 13:1 "And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,"

Ezekiel 13:2 "Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the Lord;"

God is telling Ezekiel to prophecy against those false teachers, preachers, priest, and apostles. God is mad at those that call themselves clergy, yet they do not teach what God instructs them to say. They prophecy out of their own minds, what they have made up and created out of their own vanity.

Ezekiel 13:3 "Thus saith the Lord God; 'Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!"

God is talking directly to these foolish ministers, and prophets that do not teach direct from God's word, but from the spirit within their own minds. They think up their foolish stories, and teach them as being from God.

This is all leading up to the last part of this chapter, it is aimed against those that say that God told them that we are going to all fly out of here. Pay close attention.

Ezekiel 13:4 "O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts."

The subject of this entire chapter is false teachers, [false prophets]. In the Song of Solomon 2:15, the lover says, "..the foxes knock the tender blossoms from the vine." Before the little blossom has a chance to fully develop, and be firm, the foxes run by and knock the tender flower from the vine. When the dear soul is reborn from above, and before they have a chance to become fully grounded in the Word; along come the false prophets to knock these dear souls from the true vine, which is Christ. They draw them over to the doctrines of devils, of the Antichrist. They transplant them into a foreign vine.

Ezekiel 13:5 "Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the Lord."

Remember that this prophecy is directed to the "House of Israel", and not the House of Judah. The Jews have never believed in any part of the rapture doctrine, only parts of the Christian church. Don't try to apply this prophecy to early times, for many of the false doctrines were not around in the early 1800s. This chapter is aimed at us today, living in the latter days, and given that we can make a "stand in the battle in the day of the Lord".

The "gaps" spoken of here, are the places where the hedge fences are broken down, and leave a gap for the foxes to enter. Ezekiel is saying that when the hedge fence, or doctrines have false ideas that are against God's word, creeping in, the church has not gone to mend the fence, and restore the doctrine, or teaching so that God's people will not be misled.

Today the fences are laying wide open, with gaps of error in much of the doctrines that Christ taught. This is what the subject is, people haven't eliminated the false teaching, when these false prophets entered, but let the error stand unchallenged.

Ezekiel 13:6 "They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, 'The Lord saith: and the Lord hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word."

Lying divination is a form of a false divine thing. It takes something that looks religious, and tries to make something holy out of it, when it is demonic. The only standard to compare if a thing is divine and of God, or a lying divination is God's holy Word. The "vanity" is any thing that is empty, with no bases, of support to back it up.

God told Ezekiel that these injections of false demonic doctrines, are vain hope that isn't there. These false prophets tell the people of the Christian churches that they are speaking from the word, when in fact it is their teachings which are doctrines of demons and false hope.

Ezekiel 13:7 "Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The Lord saith it; albeit I have not spoken'?"

God is saying the "vain vision" is what people are imagining, and what they have spoken in their teaching is nothing but a big lie. God is letting us know that He has not spoken it, it is a lie, and any time anyone says that I have spoken and it isn't backed by His word, that minister is a false prophet.

Ezekiel 13:8 "Therefore thus saith the Lord God; 'Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord God."

God is telling us that when one of these false prophets comes along and speaks his lies and vanities to us, and we don't have enough discernment to know the truth from a lie, God is saying that He is not only against that lying prophet, but He is against us also for listening and believing. God doesn't like it when His people play church, and create their own teaching, and make up their own religious forms that are not in His Word.

Ezekiel 13:9 "And Mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of My People, neither shall they be written in the writing of the House of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord God."

God is saying that these lying prophets will have no authority in the Kingdom of God, when Christ sets up His millennium Kingdom. Though they walk around counting the souls that they have saved for Jesus, they will not even be there, for God says that they will not be in that kingdom, nor even written in the book that records His people. This will happen for the purpose that those that are there will know that Christ is the Lord God.

Ezekiel 13:10 "Because, even because they have seduced My People, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:"

"Untempered morter" is whitewash. It is creating a form or doctrine that looks so good from the outside, and the way it is presented makes it look so religious, but at the core of the doctrine it is from the devil. When the first test of God's true word comes to test it, the wall is washed clean. God is telling us that He is against the ones that painted the whitewash on the wall, and He is against those that come along afterwards, giving support to the whitewash job.

The subject in the prior chapter is that Babylon is actually coming in the end times. The Babylon of Revelation, and the King of Babylon in Revelation is Satan, and his religious and political system. This is a reality that is called the first tribulation. This will happen before anyone gathers back to Christ. When people come along and tell you that peace is coming, and don't be afraid because we won't be here, this is false doctrine.

God sent the whole word, from cover to cover, for us to learn, and it is our wall of protection when the battle before the day of the Lord comes.

Ezekiel 13:11 "Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it."

We are to say to those that try to whitewash our beliefs, that are not grounded in the Word of God, that the proof is in the end. What happens to fresh whitewash when it comes to overflowing rain, and heavy storms? It is washed away. There is no substance to whitewash, it is just milky stuff that flows into the gutter. This "wind" that shall come is the "ruach", God's Holy Spirit, to reveal all truths.

Ezekiel 13:12 "Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, 'Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it'?"

Then when the false doctrines have finally fallen, at the return of the Lord, the Christians that have admired their whitewash job, and wonder where their beautiful paint job went. It looked so good and felt so good, that while they were in their services, they had such an uplift. They will say, Our white wall was so comforting, and where did it all go, after that storm?

Ezekiel 13:13 "Therefore thus saith the Lord God; 'I will even rend it with a stormy wind in My fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in Mine anger, and great hailstones in My fury to consume it."

Self-explanatory

Ezekiel 13:14 "So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered morter, and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall, and ye shall be consumed in the midst thereof: and ye shall know that I am the Lord."

God is saying that He will not only wash the whitewash clean, but He will tear the entire wall of false doctrine down.

We will know who the true God is, when all the church fairy-tales, and fantasies are stripped away.

Ezekiel 13:15 "Thus will I accomplish My wrath upon the wall, and upon them that have daubed it with untempered morter, and will say unto you, 'The wall is no more, neither they that daubed it;"

The time is coming when God will take those who have taken His wall, the Word of God, and made a false religion out of it; and place them where they can no longer affect anyone. When Jesus Christ returns, and Satan's time on earth is over,the wall, and the whitewash will be no more.

Ezekiel 13:16 "To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord God."

God is telling Ezekiel to write specifically to the vain talkers, focusing in on their babblings over a peace that will come to Jerusalem.

Ezekiel 13:17 "Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy People, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,"

God is directing His anger here over those false prophets [men and women alike] that say things that they have devised in their own minds. When God told Ezekiel to speak out against them, He is telling you and I also to speak out against them. This whole chapter is aimed at the time of the end, and we are living in that day. We are the ones that are to speak against the false prophets.

Ezekiel 13:18 "And say, 'Thus saith the Lord God; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of My People, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?"

In this verse, the women are the false prophets; the pillows are their false doctrine; while the stature is the high places they are teaching from.

What God is saying is Woe to those women, or those that call themselves the bride of Christ, that fabricate false prophecies [make kerchiefs], that cover the saving hands of Almighty God that reach out in judgment, and saving. The real work of God is covered. These pillows of false divine doctrine cover over the truths of God's saving hands, and give a false security to the new born spiritual soul.

Ezekiel 13:19 "And will ye pollute Me among My People for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive the should not live, by your lying to My People that hear your lies?"

This again is what God is instructing us to say to those who are teaching these false doctrines.

These false prophets also are lying to those lost souls, and promising salvation to those souls that God doesn't want saved. These ministers and teachers are creating a form of salvation, and false hope, that make people believe they are saved, when they in fact are not. In fact they have no hope in the world. He will identify people shortly.

Ezekiel 13:20 "Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; 'Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly."

If you have ever wondered what God thinks of fly-away doctrine? Here it is.

Those that have hunted with whitewashed religion and told them that they will fly out and not see the time of the end. They have not told them to prepare for the Antichrist, and that the signs of the times of the entire Bible were not important.

Jesus in the parable, from the mount of Olives, in Matthew 24; woe to that woman that is first take. Then He commands us, "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come" [verse 42]. We are to pay attention to the times we are in.

The fly away doctrine never came into existence until 1830, and then by a mental ill woman, Margaret McDonald. Jesus didn't teach it.

When you rely on I Thessalonians 4:15 to the end, and rely on that to back up the fly away doctrine, you have missed the entire meaning of the book. For in 4:13 it tells you what Paul is explaining to the Christians at the Thessalonians Church. The whole chapter is talking about where are the dead, those who died and are buried in the ground.

I Thessalonians 4:13; "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep [dead], that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

I Thessalonians 4:14; "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep [die physical death] in Jesus will God bring with him."

If you are a Christian, you believe that Christ rose from the dead. The heathen believe that when a person dies they are still out there in a hole in the ground. It is real sad that what is taught through is divination. God told us in Ezekiel 13:17; "Set thy face against the daughters [suppose to be the bride of Christ] of they people, ...and prophesy thou against them," are we to keep quiet and let them go unanswered? no.

For those who think there can be a compromise with them, it is playing with eternal death. Do we really think God meant something else when He made His hatred of this so strong? If we are so bound up in this fly-away doctrine that we can't see past it, then we have the mark of the beast already. That mark of the beast is what is fixed in a person's mind, their knowledge, their imaginations, and what they place their eternal soul in.

Ezekiel 13:21 "Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver My People out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the Lord."

Why does God keep saying, "and ye shall know that I am the Lord."? Because people keep mixing up the false Messiah with Him.

Ezekiel 13:22 "Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:"

Because of the lies of the rapture doctrine that was started by a mentally disturbed woman in 1830, it is sad when you think of those souls of people that are placing their eternal soul in the very doctrine that will in the end condemn their soul.

Ezekiel 13:23 "Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver My People out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the Lord."

During the Millennium age, that crowd will teach no more. Though they call themselves minister, teachers, and priests, God will remove them from the assembly. God is telling you and I to teach against those that teach people to fly to save their souls. How much clearer can you get. The word Rapture is not in the Bible.

When Christ returns to the earth, the thousand years of teaching also called the Day of the LORD begins. Satan will have no influence because he will be locked away in the bottomless pit until the thousand years have ended.

Katabole wrote:I know this is not the right thread to place this in but in all due respect, I do not believe in the 'Rapture Theory."

Frank wrote:

I sometimes think I would like the rapture to happen right now. But then I think about all of those people who will have to go through the tribulation period.

The rapture is non-Biblical and is no more than a tradition of men. It began in 1830 from the "so called" vision a mentally ill woman called Margret Macdonald saw. Two preachers were with her and when they heard what she explained, they went with it for monetary gain. For me it is the equivalent of a "get-out-of-jail-free-card" in monopoly. Most people get their understanding of the rapture from 1Thess 4:15-17. But the subject Paul is speaking of, begins in verse 13. Rightfully dividing the word, it is speaking of the Day of the LORD or the day when Christ returns to the earth. The whole reason Paul wrote the second letter to the Thessalonians was because they did not understand the first letter. The rapture theory teaches that Christ will return and remove the believers from earth, so that those who don't believe in Christ will have to suffer a thousand years of tribulation by the antichrist and then Christ will return again. But this is what the Bible teaches

2Thess 2:2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

The great apostacy or turning away from the faith by mass numbers of people happens, then the antichrist( the role that Satan plays at this time) happens after this. Paul is stressing here that the day that Christ returns is not going to happen, until Satan sits in the temple of God, claiming that he is the god of all religions.

This is again spoken of by Jesus in Matt 24

Mt 24:40, Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

The first one is taken by (or deceived by) the antichrist because they believe he's God. The one that is left is awaiting Christ's return.

This is why Jesus continues saying who is the wise servant?

Mt 24:45, Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

When the going gets tough, it is the perfect time for a Christian. Jesus expects us to continue working in the field (the world) see Mt 13, until He returns.

This is also spoken of in the Old Testament. This is an emotional chapter from God but it evokes his true feelings about false teaching and exhorts his righteous indignation. This is not an attack on anyone, just an explanation line by line of the verses in this chapter.

Ezekiel Chapter 13

Ezekiel 13:1 "And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,"

Ezekiel 13:2 "Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the Lord;"

God is telling Ezekiel to prophecy against those false teachers, preachers, priest, and apostles. God is mad at those that call themselves clergy, yet they do not teach what God instructs them to say. They prophecy out of their own minds, what they have made up and created out of their own vanity.

Ezekiel 13:3 "Thus saith the Lord God; 'Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!"

God is talking directly to these foolish ministers, and prophets that do not teach direct from God's word, but from the spirit within their own minds. They think up their foolish stories, and teach them as being from God.

This is all leading up to the last part of this chapter, it is aimed against those that say that God told them that we are going to all fly out of here. Pay close attention.

Ezekiel 13:4 "O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts."

The subject of this entire chapter is false teachers, [false prophets]. In the Song of Solomon 2:15, the lover says, "..the foxes knock the tender blossoms from the vine." Before the little blossom has a chance to fully develop, and be firm, the foxes run by and knock the tender flower from the vine. When the dear soul is reborn from above, and before they have a chance to become fully grounded in the Word; along come the false prophets to knock these dear souls from the true vine, which is Christ. They draw them over to the doctrines of devils, of the Antichrist. They transplant them into a foreign vine.

Ezekiel 13:5 "Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the Lord."

Remember that this prophecy is directed to the "House of Israel", and not the House of Judah. The Jews have never believed in any part of the rapture doctrine, only parts of the Christian church. Don't try to apply this prophecy to early times, for many of the false doctrines were not around in the early 1800s. This chapter is aimed at us today, living in the latter days, and given that we can make a "stand in the battle in the day of the Lord".

The "gaps" spoken of here, are the places where the hedge fences are broken down, and leave a gap for the foxes to enter. Ezekiel is saying that when the hedge fence, or doctrines have false ideas that are against God's word, creeping in, the church has not gone to mend the fence, and restore the doctrine, or teaching so that God's people will not be misled.

Today the fences are laying wide open, with gaps of error in much of the doctrines that Christ taught. This is what the subject is, people haven't eliminated the false teaching, when these false prophets entered, but let the error stand unchallenged.

Ezekiel 13:6 "They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, 'The Lord saith: and the Lord hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word."

Lying divination is a form of a false divine thing. It takes something that looks religious, and tries to make something holy out of it, when it is demonic. The only standard to compare if a thing is divine and of God, or a lying divination is God's holy Word. The "vanity" is any thing that is empty, with no bases, of support to back it up.

God told Ezekiel that these injections of false demonic doctrines, are vain hope that isn't there. These false prophets tell the people of the Christian churches that they are speaking from the word, when in fact it is their teachings which are doctrines of demons and false hope.

Ezekiel 13:7 "Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The Lord saith it; albeit I have not spoken'?"

God is saying the "vain vision" is what people are imagining, and what they have spoken in their teaching is nothing but a big lie. God is letting us know that He has not spoken it, it is a lie, and any time anyone says that I have spoken and it isn't backed by His word, that minister is a false prophet.

Ezekiel 13:8 "Therefore thus saith the Lord God; 'Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord God."

God is telling us that when one of these false prophets comes along and speaks his lies and vanities to us, and we don't have enough discernment to know the truth from a lie, God is saying that He is not only against that lying prophet, but He is against us also for listening and believing. God doesn't like it when His people play church, and create their own teaching, and make up their own religious forms that are not in His Word.

Ezekiel 13:9 "And Mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of My People, neither shall they be written in the writing of the House of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord God."

God is saying that these lying prophets will have no authority in the Kingdom of God, when Christ sets up His millennium Kingdom. Though they walk around counting the souls that they have saved for Jesus, they will not even be there, for God says that they will not be in that kingdom, nor even written in the book that records His people. This will happen for the purpose that those that are there will know that Christ is the Lord God.

Ezekiel 13:10 "Because, even because they have seduced My People, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:"

"Untempered morter" is whitewash. It is creating a form or doctrine that looks so good from the outside, and the way it is presented makes it look so religious, but at the core of the doctrine it is from the devil. When the first test of God's true word comes to test it, the wall is washed clean. God is telling us that He is against the ones that painted the whitewash on the wall, and He is against those that come along afterwards, giving support to the whitewash job.

The subject in the prior chapter is that Babylon is actually coming in the end times. The Babylon of Revelation, and the King of Babylon in Revelation is Satan, and his religious and political system. This is a reality that is called the first tribulation. This will happen before anyone gathers back to Christ. When people come along and tell you that peace is coming, and don't be afraid because we won't be here, this is false doctrine.

God sent the whole word, from cover to cover, for us to learn, and it is our wall of protection when the battle before the day of the Lord comes.

Ezekiel 13:11 "Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it."

We are to say to those that try to whitewash our beliefs, that are not grounded in the Word of God, that the proof is in the end. What happens to fresh whitewash when it comes to overflowing rain, and heavy storms? It is washed away. There is no substance to whitewash, it is just milky stuff that flows into the gutter. This "wind" that shall come is the "ruach", God's Holy Spirit, to reveal all truths.

Ezekiel 13:12 "Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, 'Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it'?"

Then when the false doctrines have finally fallen, at the return of the Lord, the Christians that have admired their whitewash job, and wonder where their beautiful paint job went. It looked so good and felt so good, that while they were in their services, they had such an uplift. They will say, Our white wall was so comforting, and where did it all go, after that storm?

Ezekiel 13:13 "Therefore thus saith the Lord God; 'I will even rend it with a stormy wind in My fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in Mine anger, and great hailstones in My fury to consume it."

Self-explanatory

Ezekiel 13:14 "So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered morter, and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall, and ye shall be consumed in the midst thereof: and ye shall know that I am the Lord."

God is saying that He will not only wash the whitewash clean, but He will tear the entire wall of false doctrine down.

We will know who the true God is, when all the church fairy-tales, and fantasies are stripped away.

Ezekiel 13:15 "Thus will I accomplish My wrath upon the wall, and upon them that have daubed it with untempered morter, and will say unto you, 'The wall is no more, neither they that daubed it;"

The time is coming when God will take those who have taken His wall, the Word of God, and made a false religion out of it; and place them where they can no longer affect anyone. When Jesus Christ returns, and Satan's time on earth is over,the wall, and the whitewash will be no more.

Ezekiel 13:16 "To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord God."

God is telling Ezekiel to write specifically to the vain talkers, focusing in on their babblings over a peace that will come to Jerusalem.

Ezekiel 13:17 "Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy People, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,"

God is directing His anger here over those false prophets [men and women alike] that say things that they have devised in their own minds. When God told Ezekiel to speak out against them, He is telling you and I also to speak out against them. This whole chapter is aimed at the time of the end, and we are living in that day. We are the ones that are to speak against the false prophets.

Ezekiel 13:18 "And say, 'Thus saith the Lord God; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of My People, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?"

In this verse, the women are the false prophets; the pillows are their false doctrine; while the stature is the high places they are teaching from.

What God is saying is Woe to those women, or those that call themselves the bride of Christ, that fabricate false prophecies [make kerchiefs], that cover the saving hands of Almighty God that reach out in judgment, and saving. The real work of God is covered. These pillows of false divine doctrine cover over the truths of God's saving hands, and give a false security to the new born spiritual soul.

Ezekiel 13:19 "And will ye pollute Me among My People for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive the should not live, by your lying to My People that hear your lies?"

This again is what God is instructing us to say to those who are teaching these false doctrines.

These false prophets also are lying to those lost souls, and promising salvation to those souls that God doesn't want saved. These ministers and teachers are creating a form of salvation, and false hope, that make people believe they are saved, when they in fact are not. In fact they have no hope in the world. He will identify people shortly.

Ezekiel 13:20 "Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; 'Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly."

If you have ever wondered what God thinks of fly-away doctrine? Here it is.

Those that have hunted with whitewashed religion and told them that they will fly out and not see the time of the end. They have not told them to prepare for the Antichrist, and that the signs of the times of the entire Bible were not important.

Jesus in the parable, from the mount of Olives, in Matthew 24; woe to that woman that is first take. Then He commands us, "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come" [verse 42]. We are to pay attention to the times we are in.

The fly away doctrine never came into existence until 1830, and then by a mental ill woman, Margaret McDonald. Jesus didn't teach it.

When you rely on I Thessalonians 4:15 to the end, and rely on that to back up the fly away doctrine, you have missed the entire meaning of the book. For in 4:13 it tells you what Paul is explaining to the Christians at the Thessalonians Church. The whole chapter is talking about where are the dead, those who died and are buried in the ground.

I Thessalonians 4:13; "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep [dead], that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

I Thessalonians 4:14; "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep [die physical death] in Jesus will God bring with him."

If you are a Christian, you believe that Christ rose from the dead. The heathen believe that when a person dies they are still out there in a hole in the ground. It is real sad that what is taught through is divination. God told us in Ezekiel 13:17; "Set thy face against the daughters [suppose to be the bride of Christ] of they people, ...and prophesy thou against them," are we to keep quiet and let them go unanswered? no.

For those who think there can be a compromise with them, it is playing with eternal death. Do we really think God meant something else when He made His hatred of this so strong? If we are so bound up in this fly-away doctrine that we can't see past it, then we have the mark of the beast already. That mark of the beast is what is fixed in a person's mind, their knowledge, their imaginations, and what they place their eternal soul in.

Ezekiel 13:21 "Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver My People out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the Lord."

Why does God keep saying, "and ye shall know that I am the Lord."? Because people keep mixing up the false Messiah with Him.

Ezekiel 13:22 "Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:"

Because of the lies of the rapture doctrine that was started by a mentally disturbed woman in 1830, it is sad when you think of those souls of people that are placing their eternal soul in the very doctrine that will in the end condemn their soul.

Ezekiel 13:23 "Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver My People out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the Lord."

During the Millennium age, that crowd will teach no more. Though they call themselves minister, teachers, and priests, God will remove them from the assembly. God is telling you and I to teach against those that teach people to fly to save their souls. How much clearer can you get. The word Rapture is not in the Bible.

When Christ returns to the earth, the thousand years of teaching also called the Day of the LORD begins. Satan will have no influence because he will be locked away in the bottomless pit until the thousand years have ended.

Katabole,

Did you come up with this all on your own? How about a source?

Bart

Hi Canuckster.

I belong to a Bible teaching church, which I have been a member of for the last fifteen years. We learn the Bible line by line based on Isa 28:10, 13. I had no source, other than using the Bible to interpret itself. Our members are diligent students. We are untited in understanding with no divisions because:

1Cor 1:10, Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Any good student of the Bible, once they break the Bible down into it's simpliest components, which is studying it line by line and refering back to the original languages in which it was written in, should come to the same conclusion about what each chapter means, keeping to the subject and the object, figures of speech, idioms etc. This is what Ezekiel chapter 13 is speaking of.

I have met many non-Christians and one of the most common questions that arises is, "There are so many different denominations in Christianity. Why would I want to believe in a doctrine where so many different people have different understandings on what different scriptures mean?" By being united in mind and judgement, it goes a long way in helping those who are lost in this world of darkness by showing them that the Bible is not a book of confusion. And as Paul stresses in the above scripture, the Christian community is supposed to be untited and not at all divided even on the most trivial matter within scripture.

There are churches that preach the rapture. There are others which don't. Our church teaches that there is no rapture which I explained in the above post, entirely based on what the Bible says and using historical evidence and real people to back up our claim. You could ask any member of the church and they would give you the same answer and many of them are more knowlegeable about scripture than me. I don't pretend to be a know it all because I don't know it all, but I believe I have a good grasp of what is spoken of within the pages of scripture. If you would like more information about Margret Mcdonald, there is a book written about her which name escapes me at the moment, but I'm sure I can get a link to it so that all on this forum can check it out.

I hope that helps.

Fair enough.

When I see something laid out in that nature, it just makes me suspect it may be a cut and paste. Those are fine, but it's only fair and honest to give credit where it is due and to allow people to know what you're drawing on to make the point.

When I get up a head of steam I can sound like a cut and paste as well.

I'm personally a Premillentialist who is uncertain as to the exact mechanics of the rapture, but to the degree I can be pinned down, I am post-trib. I see it as an important issue to the extent that the Bible includes it and therefore I must give it attention, however, in terms of my daily Christian walk and concerns it is pretty low. I can be wrong on my understanding and the impact on eternity will be negligible at worst.

I find from years of my own study and personal observation that the most strident and dogmatic of statements in this realm usually come from a scriptural hermeneutic or group dynamic that is attempting to bring its membership and adherents into a form of group-thinking that can be very counter-productive. That's my opinion, but I know many sincere and effective Christians who see it differently and I may be defining the majority unfairly by the extreme fringes.

Blessings.

Bart

catherine wrote:Canuckster, I have read many books, read hundreds, if not thousands of internet articles, visited churches, so I have been and am looking. I've been to meetings where 'God's Spirit' is being poured out and the only things happening were things that can be re-produced by man e.g falling over (I think I was the only one who didn't fall back, maybe because I prayed beforehand only for God to make me fall, not man), speaking in tongues (with no interpretation), laughing. No healings, no prophecies! I had a personal experience of the 'Holy Spirit' at a Gerald Cotes meeting quite a few years ago (during the Toronto Blessing time) and I experienced stuff that made me feel scared (natural reaction I suppose) so I prayed to God and said 'If this is you Jesus/God, please comfort me so I know this is you, but still I was scared, so I came to the conclusion that it wasn't God. Anyway, have disgressed a bit, but yes, I am looking. NOt sure why you assumed I hadn't.

Catherine, no personal slight was intended.

Have you read C.S. Lewis' Book, Miracles? If not, in view of what you have said, I would highly recommend it.

Hi Canuckster, I haven't read that one. I've just started reading Mere Christianity. I'll add it to my never ending list of books. I wish I had more time. Thanks.

Katabole,

I am pre-trib on the rapture. Why do you bring up an 1830 idea when you say that your beliefs are strictly from scripture? The rapture interpretation goes back to the early Church fathers. It only fell out of favor when the Church pushed for power over the faithful. The reference to the people of the early 1800's is a simple argument for your claim against the rapture. Since it is easy to refute you may want to drop it.

I respect your opinion and do not wish to change your beliefs. You appear to take the scriptures very seriously as I do.

Within our lifetime I think many churches will replace the Bible with their own writings. After this happens then the Bible will soon be outlawed and the Church will go underground. This will happen in the United States. Small private gatherings of devoted Christians are growing everywhere. These are the people who do not receive what in their hearts they know is true. I hope I am not correct but it does appear we are heading that way.

In the seven letters to the seven churches we see a message to the churches but we also see a prophesy of the church over the last 2000 years. In some of these letters we see that some churches will avoid the tribulation and others are destined to go through it. Of course this and many other verses can be read many ways. I accept that.

Katabole ,

I wrote a post in which I make the case that Jewish tradition and feast need to be understood to help interpret scripture.

apologetical forums/the Bible and scriptures/Time of the Gentiles

The other thing I take and relate to scripture is His creation. There is scriptural support for all three of these being used to support scripture.

The Bible is so complex I doubt if anyone could learn all that it offers in one lifetime. I see nothing wrong with learning from the scholars. Now some are better than others and their beliefs do vary greatly. After a couple of years and hundreds of hours of DVD commentaries I have settled on some I respect. That does not mean the others are wrong. I respect all people of faith. Christ can work with the hot and the cold, it is the lukewarm that may not be savable. Remember that Paul was cold.

Hey Canuckster and Frank,

I can tell that you are both passionate, intelligent Christians. And I know you find the Bible fascinating. I knew that before I joined the forum, because I read a lot of your posts on previous forums. I would have to say I'm a yes or no Chistian. I used to find the Bible complex but like anything, there had to be a method for making it simpler. Since you believe the Word and know that it is true, than you know this is true:

Isa 45:19, I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. (KJV)

Mt 5:37, But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

Mk 13:23, But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

There is an episode of Star Trek called 'The City on the Edge of Forever', written by Harlan Elison, which some of you may have seen. The episode begins with the Enterprise investigating ripples in time. As the Enterprise passes through each consecutive ripple, the time displacement gets stronger, until the ship's helmsman Sulu, gets injured. The doctor, Bones, comes to the bridge of the ship and gives Sulu an injection of a drug, called Codrazine; an adrenaline booster. Sulu gets back to his feet feeling much refreshed and then the Enterprise passes through a massive wave of time displacement. This causes the doctor to accidentally inject himself with an overdose of Codrazine and he goes insane.
The doctor Bones, then beams himself down to a nearby planet, which just happens to be where all the waves of time displacement are originating from. Kirk the captain, Spock the science officer, Scotty the engineer and Uhuru the communications officer, all beam down after him to rescue him.
When they use their tricorder devices to locate Bones, they discover that there is a strange looking, semi-circular arch object, which is the source of all the time displacement. Spock, the science officer, says it is ancient. Than Kirk, the captain of the ship, wonderingly asks, "I wonder what it is?"
Then the object begins to speak to Kirk and it says, "I am the guardian of forever. Before your sun burned hot is space and before your race was born, I have awaited a question?"
So Kirk asks the guardian, "What are you?"
The guardian replies, "I am machine and being and I am neither. I am my own beginning, my own ending."

Then Spock, who has an incredible intellect, asks the best question of all (and that is why I'm writing this as an example) and he asks the guardian, "I do not see why you have to answer all our questions in riddles?"
And the guardian answers back to Spock, "I speak only as simply as the level of your intellects can understand because if I spoke any more complexly, you would not understand at all."

Isn't that question, that Spock asks the guardian, the same kind of question the disciples ask Jesus when they say:

Mt 13:10, And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

And this is Jesus' answer.

Mt 13:11, He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

17For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

The Bible is written in the simplest form it possibly could be written in, otherwise, it would not be understood at all and from the above example, there were some that it was given to understand and others who wouldn't.

So, when it comes to matters where there is a lot of debate, for example the days of creation or the rapture, the Trinity or the law, there still must be yes and no answers to the many questions asked about scripture. Otherwise, it's just a book of confusion. There can't be a rapture and not a rapture for example. A united Christian community is an incredible witness to those who are searching for the truth. And the famine in the end times is for hearing the Word of God.

Am 8:11, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

I do agree with you Frank, that smaller groups are getting together and truly studying the Bible which can only be a good thing. And at the same time, I also believe in a very small remnant of souls that God purposely controls that make sure the Word is passed from generation to generation.

Isa 1:9, Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

I also believe in what is called British Israelism, but that is another story, however, I believe it's based on a prophecy given in Gen 49 as a blessing by Jacob surnamed Israel by God, to the descendants of his son Judah (the king line) and to Joseph's son's Ephraim and Mannaseh (representing Israel). Ten of the ten tribes were exiled but their descendants live today, though many don't see it.

Gen 1:49, And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.

I also believe that the House of Judah and the House of Israel are two different houses but in the future will be joined together. Some try to say that they are the same but I believe the difference instead is true:

Eze 37:15, The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

16Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:

17And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

18And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?

19Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

20And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

23Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

And as for the time of the Gentiles, I believe the time of the Gentiles ends when Satan comes to Earth, claiming to be God. The Mohammedians still control the Dome of the Rock. They will control it, until the time of the Gentiles (or non Israelites) is over, because they are Arabs, which are Gentiles or non-Israelites.

Peace

Katabole/Ron

Katabole,

Do you beling to a particular group or Church from which you're drawing some or part of your ideas?

So you know my background, (as I'm asking for yours it's only fair) I was raised Anglican. My family changed to an Evangelical Church when I was 12 and that is when I made a personal decision for Christ. At 15 I made a stronger commitment and moved toward ministry. I've been part of several denominations over the years. Christian and Missionary Alliance, Southern Baptist, United Methodist, Assemblies of God, Pentecostal, Word and for the past several years a Presbyterian Church of America, although I'm not a particularly dogmatic Calvinist.

I don't say that to label myself and I'm not attempting to lable you, but I think it helps to know where people are coming from and how they've arrived where they are now.

Blessings,

Bart

Katabole,

I came to Christ three years ago. I had always believed in God but the sciences were my guide for 52 years. I am a reasonably intelligent guy who stood on his pride most of his life. I take the Scriptures very seriously.

So who was Christ talking too when He spoke in parables? And who did He blind? For what reason? Did He not speak to the Jews. Did He not blind the Jews. Did He not say that they would not be judged on what they could not hear and see? Their time of awakening was not then. He protected them from themselves. He has a plan for the jews and a plan for the gentiles. Further broken down He has a plan for each of us. The message in the Bible is spread out over every page. Only when you look at the whole text as one message does it become clear. The first time I read the Bible I was amazed on how black and white it is.

Many verses in the Bible are not understood. Only when every verse is unlocked and placed in context will we ever see the whole message. Until that time we will have pockets where good Christians will disagree. I do not see this as a bad thing. Maybe the Holy Ghost is using some mystery to pull people to the Word.

I do not agree with your Star Trek example. Since God created us He knows exactly what words we would need to receive His message. I think some verses are locked and will be unlocked with an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. We are in these times or will have them soon. I trust that God has a plan with His Word and when He wishes He will reveal the meaning. Now some would say that I live in prophesy, I would say that if I don't know prophesy then I can't give glory to God when it happens.

I have strong opinions and will defend them with backup data if I feel I need too. I post on some pretty wild sites filled with atheist. I of course pray for them just I do for my family. Only on rare occations have I kicked the dust from my shoes and departed an area.