Evidence for God from Science

phiver4 wrote:Thank you very much B.W. for sharing your experience, yours is the first I have heard described in that way, to be in God's completely pure presence. That definatley moved me.

Me too... And I believe it or him to be truthful.

phiver4 wrote:I would absolutley question those that claim to talk to the dead and claim to be "mediums." I don't how one would communicate with a person ( or how God would allow it) who is in Heaven and with God.

I would even advocate that some of these communications are not spiritual at all but probably succumb to a technique known as Cold Reading. In other cases they are most likely spiritual in nature... It's hard to tell.

phiver4 wrote:But getting back to the NDE. Does anyone have a comment on 2Corn 12:2-4? Is this a reference from the New Testament about NDE?

Thank you again for all your valuable input.

Here is the verse:

2 Cor 12:2-4
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.

I don't know either.. It seems that Paul was questioning if it was an NDE or an out of body experience as well. It does appear though that this person was caught up to some spiritual paradise. It sounds a bit strange, but then again we can find other paranormal experiences in the Bible as well such as Christ walking around the earth in his newly resurrected body.

phiver4 wrote:But getting back to the NDE. Does anyone have a comment on 2Corn 12:2-4? Is this a reference from the New Testament about NDE? Thank you again for all your valuable input.

Gman wrote:Here is the verse:

2 Cor 12:2-4, "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell."

I don't know either.. It seems that Paul was questioning if it was an NDE or an out of body experience as well. It does appear though that this person was caught up to some spiritual paradise. It sounds a bit strange, but then again we can find other paranormal experiences in the Bible as well such as Christ walking around the earth in his newly resurrected body.

Here is my opinion on these verses:

2 Cor 12:2-4, "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. 5 On behalf of this man I will boast, but on my own behalf I will not boast, except of my weaknesses. 6 Though if I should wish to boast, I would not be a fool, for I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain from it, so that no one may think more of me than he sees in me or hears from me. 7 So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited."

This could be a NDE that Paul had or an open revelation. Many bible commentators believe Paul was speaking of himself here while others say someone else. Notice verses 5-7 that on behalf of this man, Paul will boast in, but on his own behalf Paul will not boast, except of his own weaknesses. Paul goes on to explain that he too has revelations but he does not boast about these so that people do not make him out as something great just because he has visions. In other words exalt him above reason and rely solely on his revelations and not the gospel of Christ. In order to keep Paul in line so that he does not become conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations Paul has, a thorn was given to him in the flesh,to keep Paul from becoming conceited.

This makes sense to me because how easy it is for people to rely only on divine revelations alone and not on the word of God. The real God inspired revelations such as open vision, seeing heaven or hell, NDE's are okay for what ever purpose God intends with these but these alone are not the final source to solely rely on. They should lead people to the word of God and be confirmed by the word of God — bible. What can happen is that people end up seeking such revelations and never grow and mature in Christ through the scriptures which the Holy Spirit uses to mature believers. I think Paul is trying to make the same point here in the verses you asked about.
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thanks for sharing the experience B.W. ! Now it really looks as somethin real, not just a dream. And when in this state - did you only feel your soul and not yout body - i.e. you were outside of it, or was it that you were able to both manipulate your body and your soul outside of it?
ANyway, these are interesting anf used for God's purpose in some way.

Now im just watching these videos! WOW! freaky! That freaked me out - most however the things about the spiritual beings and black magic. What is it? Does it exist? Why do some people have such powers? Hmm finished the video - apparently some evil spirits.
Ok - who are these spirits? Satan's servants/followers? And if they dont come from God - does it then mean God allows it?

As for astrology, magic and that - there are people who believe in it. Then there are those who say it's not true, "bunch of crap" (sorry for expression!!) and other things - that it's not possible to see the future, tell things etc. Now can we explain it scientifically? Me, personally, dont believe in magicians and astrologues and that - however i believe they have psychological power if we let them - e.g. they tell us tomorrow will be a bad day, so we are afraid, afraid, and start doing silly things, which turn out day very bad. Now - back to these other spirits - can they be explained metaphysically? And what is the connection? Who is the ultimate power - God? Then if it is Him, why do other beings interfere? Isnt it ALL up to God, i.e. all God and no other beings?
OK i believe angels exist and so do demons, but didnt think they were here and manipulated us! And what about evil spirits and exorcism and that? Is that real? Should we believe in it? Me, personally, i dont believe one can be "possessed" by an evil spirit - possession could be a psychological trouble but nothing more, just as other things are.
And if we are to explain things by free will, cause and consequence and metaphysics, how do we explain black magic and the fact Allan Rich has seen someone bleed to death? Does God allow this or even lead this to happen? Or does He not simply interfere with it? Or is it pure chance and psychology? And why do these evil spirits need a practitioner - e.g. if i wish someone bad luck he'll have it but until i do it, he'll be ok - dont the evil spirits rule as well without our intervention? And what is their power - change the world of metaphysics, similarly to how God does it?
And why these forces have to be evil? Why cant God give one such good powers e.g. to heal? Jesus healed to show God's power - or why did he then heal them? Now if Jesus healed to display he is God, why cant some of us possess such good gifts as well? And are these gifts something we "get" i.e. are born with or is it something we can learn in life - e.g. practising black magic or astrology?

Sorry if this may seem off-topic but is amazing!! And sorry if too many questions - but i think many of us will find this interesting. Is the stuff with demons and ghosts/spirits a pure theory which only "fools" believe or is it actually real? Spiritual world, for me, means the life after death, and the fact im conscious. nothing more. but for others it may...
Ok hope i'll soon be able to learn more about this world... God bless! Hope Holy Spirit makes me understand this. And one more thing - how does HS do it? Again, by altering this world of metaphysics and hence our psychology, or by some unexplicable force?

Hi madscientist,

There is a dark world controlled by the evil one. The world is under the sway of the evil one. 1 John 5:19, “We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.” ESV

These beings do their utmost to deceive people in diverse ways in order to lead them away from discovering the saving knowledge of Christ. They use past life memories, thoughts of reincarnation, Mediums, speaking to the dead, paganism, etc, to deceive.

When a person is really possessed by an evil spirit — they display an ability to know hidden things about another person known only to that individual. I say this as an example of the work that some mediums do. They may not be possessed in the full sense of the word by some entity but they are getting info from another devilish source nevertheless.

What fruit do they bring? Doubt God's word, poo poo Hell's recompense, lead people — multitudes away from Christ Jesus to follow some lie that replaces Christ causing men and women to reject the only savior.

They allure through the lust of the flesh and appease guilt with smooth words and beguile unstable souls. They do not appear overtly evil but it is there fruit one must note — they lead people away from the bible, away from Christ, and usually to a god of their or a followers own making; thus, placing themselves under a curse and judgment to come. There is a beautiful beguiling side of the evil one that seduces an unwary soul.

But be of good cheer — Christ overcame the evil one and did not leave us, his people, to be the devils meat — be of good cheer as he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world…

1 John 5:18-20, “We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.20 we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.” KJV
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Thanks for your reply B.W. However, i was more referring to how these evil spirits go about their achievements, if our will for example can be stronger etc and how it all ties with the metaphysical world, cause and effect, and finally free will.

First, it is important to say that we are who we are genetically and also due to society (nurture). Why then people act according to how they grow up and how they are genetically? Is it because we are limited by our metaphysical world? Is it that the evil/good spirits have power, but in this world, they are limited to the metaphysical laws? Normally, a blind person for example can't lust after someone 50 metres away because he/she cant see him. Well an example. OK it's illogical if he/she were - but the point is, we can only do evil which we are sortof "allowed to" do. Also consider the fact that we are evil, and we act according to our mood, neuronic activity and so on. If our brain is unable to produce evil thoughts for some reason, then the evil spirits may try very hard - they wont succeed. And again, if we dope ourselves to think badly, then our brain will have sinful thoughts etc - again, result of metaphysics or evil spirits?

The basic question is - can the idea of spirits and spiritual world be reconciled with the world and logic of the metaphysics, neuropsychology and cause & effect? Yes it's similar to God's will - how does God's will work in this world? I kind of gave myself an explanation how He does it so that His will is accomplished and both free will and predestination work and all that. But again, should we say "it's all due to the devil and evil" or actually say "it's my fault"? And also, are these evil spirits immutable - that is, that they act on us constantly in a bad way, or is it that sometimes they choose some individuals or that it is not constant? - Like with God for example, it is constant - He loves us, cares for us, etc although we may not feel it. He has certain set plans for us and knows all our past present & future. But with these good and evil spirits - do they have some plan with us or they act randomly?
And how do the two worlds come together?

madscientist -

I'll have to get back with you on this a bit later. However, please do not forget these scriptures as they sum it up better than I can....

Romans 5:18-19, "Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous." ESV

John 12:31, "Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out." ESV

John 14:30, "I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me..."ESV

John 16:11< "...concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. "ESV

2 Co 4:4, "In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." ESV

1 John 5:19, “We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.” ESV

Note that Jesus came and set people free from the bondage of the evil one - God did not leave those that come to know him defenseless.

More on this latter…as I need to think about what you are asking further...
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Oh no problem B.W. ... yeah i know it's not easiest my questions; I've been told that even when I was very small and wasnt aware of it... dunno. my nature? I question things. Even what seems obvious for others still raises questions for me... What if...?? IF it is different... does it then mean that? I always want to know why and how - thats why i post here; how for the science and why for the God part. Why is important because we want reason; science is more of how we can do it, and also how things work.

As for the last post- basically saying we're all evil, and that God's Son saves all people, which were lost by act of one person... Right?

B. W. wrote: 2 Co 4:4, "In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." ESV

Always wondered about this. If it says that God wants all people to come to Him isnt this slightly controversial? Yes it IS true that once someone is going away from God, he is doing badly, and getting worse, and seeing arguments against God, and everything seems to go against him. However, the same (maybe ) applies to the opposite - that once we seem to get to God closer, and are hit and affected by His love and that, it is like a miracle, and seem to be bound by Him. Someone whose faith is extremely strong has usually a low chance of turning back to evil - he has been affected so strongly... spiritual or psychological or both?? Well if we consider we erase a person's mind and all memories he is like a new person so his faith or in the other case, hatred or ignorance towards God are effaced... So we are what experience goes through us, whether this be real or hallucinated. It's all in the brain

madscientist wrote:Oh no problem B.W. ... yeah i know it's not easiest my questions; I've been told that even when I was very small and wasnt aware of it... dunno. my nature? I question things. Even what seems obvious for others still raises questions for me... What if...?? IF it is different... does it then mean that? I always want to know why and how - thats why i post here; how for the science and why for the God part. Why is important because we want reason; science is more of how we can do it, and also how things work.

As for the last post- basically saying we're all evil, and that God's Son saves all people, which were lost by act of one person... Right?

B. W. wrote: 2 Co 4:4, "In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." ESV

Always wondered about this. If it says that God wants all people to come to Him isnt this slightly controversial? Yes it IS true that once someone is going away from God, he is doing badly, and getting worse, and seeing arguments against God, and everything seems to go against him. However, the same (maybe ) applies to the opposite - that once we seem to get to God closer, and are hit and affected by His love and that, it is like a miracle, and seem to be bound by Him. Someone whose faith is extremely strong has usually a low chance of turning back to evil - he has been affected so strongly... spiritual or psychological or both?? Well if we consider we erase a person's mind and all memories he is like a new person so his faith or in the other case, hatred or ignorance towards God are effaced... So we are what experience goes through us, whether this be real or hallucinated. It's all in the brain

Always read the context of the scriptures quoted to avoid not understanding as many things are cleared up by doing so...

Also your answer is found in Genesis 6:1-8

More later...
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Guys,

Strangely enough, the National Geographic channel has started to air a story (started Jan. 29) called "I Came Back From the Dead" in which researchers now believe there's a third state of being that hovers somewhere between life and death... According to the researchers, scientist's currently have no real explanation as to how these experiences happen.

The story is about three individuals who have experienced a NDE. The most intriguing NDE was centered around Pam Reynolds who actually watched the doctors operate on her while she was practically brain dead... She describes her experience as being "crystal clear" and not a dream.

This is an excerpt taken from ABC....

"During her clinical death, Reynolds experienced something that is reported by around 20 percent of cardiac arrest victims -- a phenomenon commonly termed a near-death experience (NDE). She had the sensation of having watched her surgery from above the table, and what surprised her doctors was that she could recount specific details of the operation, including parts of the operating room conversation.

"I heard a female voice say, 'We have a problem, her arteries are too small,'" Reynolds said.

The conversation and other details she recounted were in the surgical records.

Dr. Karl Greene, who was on the team of surgeons, asked, "Why would she have this kind of information if she was so deeply under a barbiturate infusion of medications that should be shutting down her brain?"

More about it here: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=4179894

wow what interesting article!! People just come to life. But does NDE require a "clinical death" - what we mean by it today? Then yes maybe a re-definition of clinical death would be useful.
as for the guy who was in the lake - also very amazing! being cooled down means we can live longer... hmm kinda relates to cryogenics or one of these where one is frozen... maybe also a potential for putting one's life off several years if it worked for longer? If not - still amazing how one can "survive" more than 1 hour under a lake all frozen. Really; that doesn't happen often. 1 more question which could be relevant - did these experiences have a religious effect on these people? were they believers in the first place or did they become once after the experience?

Anyway... hope God reveals more about this if it is in his good will; one where we would actually bring him glory

madscientist wrote:wow what interesting article!! People just come to life. But does NDE require a "clinical death" - what we mean by it today? Then yes maybe a re-definition of clinical death would be useful.

Here is another interesting article... The blind can now see after having an NDE...

"Dr. Kenneth Ring and Sharon Cooper completed a two-year study into the NDEs of the blind. They published their findings in a book entitled "Mindsight" in which they documented the solid evidence of 31 cases in which blind people report visually accurate information obtained during an NDE. Perhaps the best example in his study is that of a forty-five year old blind woman by the name of Vicki Umipeg. Vicki was born blind, her optic nerve having been completely destroyed at birth because of an excess of oxygen she received in the incubator. Yet, she appears to have been able to see during her NDE. Her story is a particularly clear instance of how NDEs of the congenitally blind can unfold in precisely the same way as do those of sighted persons."

Source: http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html#a3

madscientist wrote:as for the guy who was in the lake - also very amazing! being cooled down means we can live longer... hmm kinda relates to cryogenics or one of these where one is frozen... maybe also a potential for putting one's life off several years if it worked for longer? If not - still amazing how one can "survive" more than 1 hour under a lake all frozen. Really; that doesn't happen often. 1 more question which could be relevant - did these experiences have a religious effect on these people? were they believers in the first place or did they become once after the experience?

Well is looks like it had an effect on B.W., who was once an unbeliever. My friend who was an atheist, was greatly shaken by the incident and is now a religious person...

madscientist wrote:Anyway... hope God reveals more about this if it is in his good will; one where we would actually bring him glory

Time will tell I guess... As is stands, no one has an explanation for these NDE's.

So then NDEs show that one is in a different world, if they can see. However, it must be quite a scary experience for someone who has been blind his entire life. What is this I "see"? But then if they came back to normal life it must have been quite disappointing. Nevertheless, it showed to them there's something more to live than this current life.
Anyway... what is NDE? No-one really knows it looks like. And death - is death a NDE where the person does not return back to life? Does death occur when the person doesn't return back but remains in that state? Well we can't know for sure but only give our opinions.
And it's nice it can bring people to God... but not all unbelievers are given this chance of becoming believers... (or are they, only using different means?)
Is NDE a metaphysical world controlled by its laws, or is it not a world but just an "experience" which has no set place where it is happening? And is NDE composed of our memories and all that? Surely it must; someone i think has said that he remembered... then he must've known who he is etc.

Hey guys, haven't posted for several months. And for those of you who don't know/remember me, I definitely am Christian. And I am definitely open to the possibilty of some NDE experiences being facilitated by God. But there has been some speculation of near death experiences being DMT. DMT is a chemical in your brain that is believed to be part of what makes you dream. DMT is aslo found in countless plants, and if extracted from the plants and smoked, is a very strong hallucinogen. It can make you "dream" while you are awake, have out of body experiences, hallucinate just about anything, and other stuff. Some aspects of NDE's seem to be similar to DMT trips, so the hypothesis is that your brain might release extra DMT or something in a NDE. There has been no scientific study of this though, it is just an idea based on a connection and seems relatively logical.

I prefer the God explanation though.

gogobuffalo wrote:Hey guys, haven't posted for several months. And for those of you who don't know/remember me, I definitely am Christian. And I am definitely open to the possibilty of some NDE experiences being facilitated by God. But there has been some speculation of near death experiences being DMT. DMT is a chemical in your brain that is believed to be part of what makes you dream. DMT is aslo found in countless plants, and if extracted from the plants and smoked, is a very strong hallucinogen. It can make you "dream" while you are awake, have out of body experiences, hallucinate just about anything, and other stuff. Some aspects of NDE's seem to be similar to DMT trips, so the hypothesis is that your brain might release extra DMT or something in a NDE. There has been no scientific study of this though, it is just an idea based on a connection and seems relatively logical.

Yes there could be chemical reactions in the brain, however, these experiences are a little bit more unusual. Hovering over your body while surgery is being performed? Identifying clearly not only what was being said but what people were wearing and what objects were in the room? I don't know, seems a little bit more than just a brain malfunction.

I can't speak for everyone here but I wouldn't hang your faith on NDE. For me all this falls more into the mystery category... I guess someday when we die we will find out... Until then, who knows...