Evidence for God from Science

phiver4 wrote:

B. W. wrote:

phiver4 wrote:I have always wondered about someone who has given their life to Christ and later on commits suicide. Is this forgivable in God's eyes?

I have to ask - phiver4 - are you personally thinking of such a course for yourself or known someone who has?
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B.W.
Me? not at all. I have personally known people who have and this question has always perplexed me as it is not addressed (as far as I can find) in the Bible.

I've touched on this a time or two in the past, so I won't elaborate a great deal. I've suffered in the past from clinical depression and can understand from personal experience how someone can go so deep into despair that suicide seems like a positive thing. Fortunately, I've come to know the warning signs for me when I'm moving toward such a place and I've learned to ask for help and find it when I need it. Sadly, it's usually not in the Church. It's not that the church doesn't want to help. Often times Christians don't know how.

If anyone reading this needs help in this area, pm me or any of the board moderators and we'll assist as we can.

Kurieuo wrote:I believe we are all forgiven - Christian and non-Christian alike. God's forgiveness through Christ has atoned for any and all sin. Therefore, if someone is so emotionally or psychologically distraught to the extent they take their own life, then it does not matter, for since Christ died for us sin is no longer the issue that separates us from God. This is certainly good news (gospel).

I'm confused about this statement.

While Christ has atoned for any and all sin...not all sin is forgiven...hence a second death. Maybe I'm just reading this wrong. Help.
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phiver4 wrote:

B. W. wrote:

phiver4 wrote:I have always wondered about someone who has given their life to Christ and later on commits suicide. Is this forgivable in God's eyes?

I have to ask - phiver4 - are you personally thinking of such a course for yourself or known someone who has?

B.W.
Me? not at all. I have personally known people who have and this question has always perplexed me as it is not addressed (as far as I can find) in the Bible.

Please do not mind me asking the questions that I did. There are a lot of factors regarding suicide. One reason you do not hear on this subject is that is far better to deter someone from the act than to give them justification for it — become a Christian and afterward commit the act.

There are biological factors such as depression, anxiety, various mental illnesses that can contribute to the act. Also acts of desperation such as war related stressors than can cause one to despair life. Then you have spiritual factors of oppressive evil spirits causing one to despair, etc and etc.

So it is best to let the issue and answer reside with the Lord as he knows the actual state of every person and his judgment will be just in such matters more than our speculations.
You cannot condone it and nether can you condemn those that fell-victim to the act. Let the Lord be the judge.

Thing is — things do pass — trials, tribulations, rejection, abuse, long term effects of rape, trauma, extreme duress, etc — pass. These seasons do not last. A person can recover and move on and grow closer to the Lord than the rest of us. Just do not give up. Things may look bad but these bad — pass and end. When you come to the Lord and seek him — he will answer and heal the pain It maybe slow or fast but he will do this and give one rest and provide a new hope so that what you learned from the experience — you' be able to help another similarly undergoing what you overcame also overcome.

Hope this helps in some way.
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BavarianWheels wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:I believe we are all forgiven - Christian and non-Christian alike. God's forgiveness through Christ has atoned for any and all sin. Therefore, if someone is so emotionally or psychologically distraught to the extent they take their own life, then it does not matter, for since Christ died for us sin is no longer the issue that separates us from God. This is certainly good news (gospel).

I'm confused about this statement.

While Christ has atoned for any and all sin...not all sin is forgiven...hence a second death. Maybe I'm just reading this wrong. Help.

Did the prodigal son need to return to his father in order for his father to forgive him? No. His father forgave him even before he returned as is evidenced by the father's joy. The father had no issue with his son's sins. However, for the son to be reconciled with his father in relationship he needed to return to his father. When we come to Christ, and as such God, we do not come to a Father ready to judge and condemn us. Christ wore all that so sin is no longer an issue for any of us, and we are reconciled to God in this respect. However, not all are reconciled relationally to God, for not all desire to be with or return to God. While we have all been forgiven, one needs to desire or want God and turn to God's open arms. That is the way I see it in Scripture, and that is the understanding of God's grace I have come to know.

• Romans 5:
  7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
  8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
  9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
  10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
  11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

It might help to understand me better if you read through my exchanges with Jac in the thread "Saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone" located at http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 58&p=48014

Kurieuo wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:I believe we are all forgiven - Christian and non-Christian alike. God's forgiveness through Christ has atoned for any and all sin. Therefore, if someone is so emotionally or psychologically distraught to the extent they take their own life, then it does not matter, for since Christ died for us sin is no longer the issue that separates us from God. This is certainly good news (gospel).

I'm confused about this statement.

While Christ has atoned for any and all sin...not all sin is forgiven...hence a second death. Maybe I'm just reading this wrong. Help.

Did the prodigal son need to return to his father in order for his father to forgive him? No. His father forgave him even before he returned as is evidenced by the father's joy. The father had no issue with his son's sins. However, for the son to be reconciled with his father in relationship he needed to return to his father. When we come to Christ, and as such God, we do not come to a Father ready to judge and condemn us. Christ wore all that so sin is no longer an issue for any of us, and we are reconciled to God in this respect. However, not all are reconciled relationally to God, for not all desire to be with or return to God. While we have all been forgiven, one needs to desire or want God and turn to God's open arms. That is the way I see it in Scripture, and that is the understanding of God's grace I have come to know.

• Romans 5:
  7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
  8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
  9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
  10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
  11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

It might help to understand me better if you read through my exchanges with Jac in the thread "Saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone" located at http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 58&p=48014

I think I know what you're saying; All sin is atoned for through Christ. His death was enough to save the entire world since Adam. This would mean that every person, while not even aware of this, has been afforded forgiveness. However this forgiveness comes only when the sinner returns to God and seeks that which has already been given. In other words, forgiveness is a gift...which one must reach out to receive.

Is that it?
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BavarianWheels wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:I believe we are all forgiven - Christian and non-Christian alike. God's forgiveness through Christ has atoned for any and all sin. Therefore, if someone is so emotionally or psychologically distraught to the extent they take their own life, then it does not matter, for since Christ died for us sin is no longer the issue that separates us from God. This is certainly good news (gospel).

I'm confused about this statement.

While Christ has atoned for any and all sin...not all sin is forgiven...hence a second death. Maybe I'm just reading this wrong. Help.

Did the prodigal son need to return to his father in order for his father to forgive him? No. His father forgave him even before he returned as is evidenced by the father's joy. The father had no issue with his son's sins. However, for the son to be reconciled with his father in relationship he needed to return to his father. When we come to Christ, and as such God, we do not come to a Father ready to judge and condemn us. Christ wore all that so sin is no longer an issue for any of us, and we are reconciled to God in this respect. However, not all are reconciled relationally to God, for not all desire to be with or return to God. While we have all been forgiven, one needs to desire or want God and turn to God's open arms. That is the way I see it in Scripture, and that is the understanding of God's grace I have come to know.

• Romans 5:
  7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
  8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
  9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
  10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
  11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

It might help to understand me better if you read through my exchanges with Jac in the thread "Saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone" located at http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 58&p=48014

I think I know what you're saying; All sin is atoned for through Christ. His death was enough to save the entire world since Adam. This would mean that every person, while not even aware of this, has been afforded forgiveness. However this forgiveness comes only when the sinner returns to God and seeks that which has already been given. In other words, forgiveness is a gift...which one must reach out to receive.

Is that it?

In general, yes, that is pretty much what I believe. As such, one is not condemned because of sin any longer, but rather because they choose to reject the forgiveness and stand on their own terms before God. They are condemned because they reject God, not because God rejects them, although the time will come when such will be judged and given their desire to be their own gods.

So if someone commits suicide, and yet such a person has accepted Christ, their sin can not condemn them for sin is no longer an issue between us and God thanks to Christ.

So if someone commits suicide, and yet such a person has accepted Christ, their sin can not condemn them for sin is no longer an issue between us and God thanks to Christ.

I agree. But what of the non Christian, who you say is forgiven, but not in "a relationship" with God. Whre is that persons eternal destiny?

FFC wrote:

So if someone commits suicide, and yet such a person has accepted Christ, their sin can not condemn them for sin is no longer an issue between us and God thanks to Christ.

I agree. But what of the non Christian, who you say is forgiven, but not in "a relationship" with God. Whre is that persons eternal destiny?

He/she has chosen their own destiny in killing themselves. I THINK God will honor that decision as that is the only thing He can do in light of Justice as I believe we are being taught.
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BavarianWheels wrote:

FFC wrote:

So if someone commits suicide, and yet such a person has accepted Christ, their sin can not condemn them for sin is no longer an issue between us and God thanks to Christ.

I agree. But what of the non Christian, who you say is forgiven, but not in "a relationship" with God. Whre is that persons eternal destiny?

He/she has chosen their own destiny in killing themselves. I THINK God will honor that decision as that is the only thing He can do in light of Justice as I believe we are being taught.
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But what is that destiny and where does it take that person for whom Christ has died and has forgiven?

FFC wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:

FFC wrote:

So if someone commits suicide, and yet such a person has accepted Christ, their sin can not condemn them for sin is no longer an issue between us and God thanks to Christ.

I agree. But what of the non Christian, who you say is forgiven, but not in "a relationship" with God. Whre is that persons eternal destiny?

He/she has chosen their own destiny in killing themselves. I THINK God will honor that decision as that is the only thing He can do in light of Justice as I believe we are being taught.
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But what is that destiny and where does it take that person for whom Christ has died and has forgiven?

After having taken their own life, a dead person cannot choose Life.
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BavarianWheels wrote:

FFC wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:

FFC wrote:

So if someone commits suicide, and yet such a person has accepted Christ, their sin can not condemn them for sin is no longer an issue between us and God thanks to Christ.

I agree. But what of the non Christian, who you say is forgiven, but not in "a relationship" with God. Whre is that persons eternal destiny?

He/she has chosen their own destiny in killing themselves. I THINK God will honor that decision as that is the only thing He can do in light of Justice as I believe we are being taught.
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But what is that destiny and where does it take that person for whom Christ has died and has forgiven?

After having taken their own life, a dead person cannot choose Life.
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The issue then would be that the person died without Christ, not the means of that death.

For the Christian, I don't believe suicide is an unforgivable sin in the sense that it affects our salvation. The Scriptures speak of Christians who are saved as it were by the skin of their teeth and yet when they stand before Christ there will be those who have a sense of shame. I don't think that is specifically referring to suicides exclusively but that's how I view it.

BavarianWheels wrote:

FFC wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:

FFC wrote:

So if someone commits suicide, and yet such a person has accepted Christ, their sin can not condemn them for sin is no longer an issue between us and God thanks to Christ.

I agree. But what of the non Christian, who you say is forgiven, but not in "a relationship" with God. Whre is that persons eternal destiny?

He/she has chosen their own destiny in killing themselves. I THINK God will honor that decision as that is the only thing He can do in light of Justice as I believe we are being taught.
.
.

But what is that destiny and where does it take that person for whom Christ has died and has forgiven?

After having taken their own life, a dead person cannot choose Life.
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You are equivocating two different meanings for "life" there. Just because a person takes their life in our imperfect world, does not mean they would not choose life with God.

especailyl since, in the depths of their depression, often people choose suicide in the desparate means to be with God. Many sincere Christians who have been locked in the battle of depression committ suicide.

zoegirl wrote:especailyl since, in the depths of their depression, often people choose suicide in the desparate means to be with God. Many sincere Christians who have been locked in the battle of depression committ suicide.

Sad but true. I wonder how many of us would admit to feeling like that at times.