"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
https://discussions.godandscience.org/
How do you figure? Please explain.jenna wrote:B.W., the verses you gave don't apply to clean and unclean foods. They apply to fasting, and the eating of food that had been sacrificed to animals.
I like you.Has God not mentioned that there are things to be eaten and not to be taken.Anything that was not prescribed by God for and as food is not.You say Adam and Eve did what was forbidden/Read Leviticus 11 and know what God forbade and find whether or not you are bcoming as another Eve or Adam.God forbade some things and for us to reason would be like beholding the fruit as desirable,while God has outlawed its consumption.Remember this fruit(very literal) did not contain any poison or anything harmful ,but was to be a test of loyalty-they chose to be like God and in the process became like Satan.It may not be poisonous to partake of pork or any outlawed thing,but it certainly has a bearing on our eternity.God does not operate on principles of logic,but trust.The health and dietary laws were not shadows of anything to come as were other ceremonial laws as sacrifices.catherine wrote:Hi Oscarsiziba, your understanding of the 'first sin' that was committed by the first humans is one I have never come across!! Adam and Eve were disobedient, they did something God told them not to. I don't even know for sure if the tree is a literal tree, although I do accept that it is, I am open to the possibility it may be symbolic. Anyway, the fact that the tree represents Good and evil is a clue to all this, not the 'act of eating' which is what I think you are suggesting. Correct me if I am wrong. It could even be argued that they sinned prior to the actual act of eating, in that they would have to have desired the fruit, or they made a conscious choice to disobey God - Jesus tells us that sin is born in the 'heart' before the actual act itself. Anyway, did you read the link I mentioned. I cannot in all honesty see how anyone who applies the diligence of the Bereans, and who takes into account the whole of the Bible, can still believe we are under the Law. Paul and other scriptures plainly show that Jesus is the 'fulfillment' of that imperfect Law and the new law, or new covenant is superior and perfect. God Bless
and I know that we 'see' things, or rather we understand these matters differently. Don't let your heart bleed for me, my own heart bleeds for me all the time!! You said: 'God does not operate on principles of logic....' so why then did God after the Flood, allow Noah and his family to eat 'every moving thing that lives' Gen 9: 3??
Note quite - it applies to what makes a new believer stumble and it also applies to dietary laws and Sabbath.jenna wrote:B.W., the verses you gave don't apply to clean and unclean foods. They apply to fasting, and the eating of food that had been sacrificed to animals.
Romans 141Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
Then you imply everyone is going to be in heaven because God accepts our inclinations?Is not His standard and rule superior?If it is ,then that means Paul was addressing this to people who already knew what to eat and not to eat-that in the foods they understood to be on God's menu they were not supposed to put stumbling blocks in the way of another.Where does the issue of temperance to gain mastery and eating and drinking to give glory to God come in when there are no rules that govern what and how we eat?Note well that the Bible says in the last days there are some that will come and forbid marriages and food to be eaten that...was created to be received with thanksgiving (1 Timothy 4 V1-3) and of them which believe and know the truth.If God has given everything to us for consumption,why would there be need to know the truth(there are lies that go with the food issues,implication is that there is a certain truth that should be known regarding foods-it being that God never rescinded on the foods that He declared abominations.Why did Noah take two of each of the animals that God had declared unclean into the ark while he took seven of those that God had declared clean?These my questions are never answered.B. W. wrote:Note quite - it applies to what makes a new believer stumble and it also applies to dietary laws and Sabbath.jenna wrote:B.W., the verses you gave don't apply to clean and unclean foods. They apply to fasting, and the eating of food that had been sacrificed to animals.
If someone wants to keep the dietary laws or a Saturday Sabbath - so be it and one does not keep the dietary laws or a Saturday Sabbath - so be it.
The message is simple - stop condemning one another other these issues and placing stumbling blocks before new believers.
2 Timothy 3:16, “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,…” ESV
Regarding Romans 14 and 15:
When a person starts to nullify God's word being conveyed in Romans 14 and 15 using arguments for literalness as you do and then not applying it elsewhere when it opposes what you believe, then, that is a sure sign of an aberrant cultic way of thinking used to manipulate people away from recognizing the truth and liberty in Christ Christians do have. This is tactic is employed by all aberrant cult like groups to enslave one to a cult leaders point of view and not to the libertating gospel of Christ.
How is the study on the names of God going, Jenna, on the Trinty thread? You are that Jenna - correct? If so what are you learning?
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13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself.
That's the monkey wrench that gums up Oscarsizbia and Katabole's position...and strips the gears cleanzoegirl wrote:13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14 As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself.
Read a little further, Catherine. Notice it says God has given us all things, even as the green herbs. Are we able to eat all plants as well? Of course not. What is meant by this is that God has given us all animals for our use. We cannot eat all green herbs, as many are poisonous and would make us sick, or possibly kill us. The same reasoning goes for animals.catherine wrote:Hi Oscarsiziba, I like you too
There were no 'unclean' animals then, as in reality, there is no such thing as an unclean animal. When the whole of the Mosaic system, the laws, the priesthood, temple etc, was set up God did make a (temporary) distinction with the animals. B.W quoted some very important scriptures a few posts before this. If you want to not eat certain animals then that is absolutely fine! I wouldn't dream of eating these animals in your presence as I would know it would offend you. I hope you can maybe begin to see where I am coming from and have a think about the point I asked you above as I would be very interested to know why you think God allowed them to eat ALL animals at that time?
Christ's death is what saves us. Does this mean we are free to go against what God has told us to do and not to do?B. W. wrote:Well, I guess it comes down to this:
Are you saved because you keep the dietary laws?
Or by Christ finished work on the cross?
Some of you believe in annihilationism so therefore — eat a ham sandwich and you are doomed!
Eating bacon can lead to a heart attack as does eating kosher lamb and beef…so don't eat meat and take supplements. Better yet — not eat at all. Just kidding…
Anyway let me get back to the point — what saves? Law or Christ?
Which binds burdens too hard to bear on backs of the people? The Law or Christ?
Or which binds burdens too hard to bear on backs of the people? Liberal progressives legislating what thou shall eat or not eat, wear or not wear, what you can or not own, how much you owe taxes or not owe? What saves — this new Phariseeism or Christ?
Most here would declare that Christ saves and the law cannot, yet, people are still told to hold fast to the dietary laws. Makes no sense…
If you want to hold too the dietary laws that is your prerogative but do not be fooled that that alone can save you from sin or keep you saved either.-
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Hi Jenna,jenna wrote:No, not really, B.W. Tell me why God would specify exactly which animals are unclean and unfit for food, and then turn around and say all animals are able to be eaten? This makes no sense. God doesn't change, neither do His laws. It is man who decides to change what God has said. God says "do not eat swine's flesh", and pork is the #1 selling meat in the world. Not to mention shrimp, crab, lobster, catfish, rabbit, etc. So many think it is okay to eat these animals, when we are plainly told not to. And one wonders why we have so much disease and sickness in the world. There were reasons we were told not to eat certain kinds of animals, and those reasons remain the same, regardless of how they are cooked or the temperatures involved.
1Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2"Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"
3Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, 'Honor your father and mother'[a] and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6he is not to 'honor his father[c]' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.'[d]"
10Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. 11What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "
12Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?"
13He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14Leave them; they are blind guides.[e] If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
15Peter said, "Explain the parable to us."
16"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. 17"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' "
Acts. 15:5-11Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."
6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
