Evidence for God from Science

Gman wrote:In other words, if you don't Speak in Tongues, then you don't have the Holy Spirit inside you and therefore you are not saved...

Get it now?

In Fairness, most charismatics in terms of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit separate it from Salvation and wouldn't state that if you don't speak in tongues you're not saved.

Canuckster1127 wrote:

Gman wrote:In other words, if you don't Speak in Tongues, then you don't have the Holy Spirit inside you and therefore you are not saved...

Get it now?

In Fairness, most charismatics in terms of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit separate it from Salvation and wouldn't state that if you don't speak in tongues you're not saved.

That might be true. I'm not too familiar with this group...

Back in the 80's I considered myself a charismatic or a Christian mystic. We spoke in tongues, but their interpretation of it was that you weren't really saved until you could reveal the manifestations of the Holy Spirit (like speaking in tongues). They did insinuate however that you could have total prosperity if you only had faith. Nothing could be more contrary to the truth..

Gman wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:

Gman wrote:In other words, if you don't Speak in Tongues, then you don't have the Holy Spirit inside you and therefore you are not saved...

Get it now?

In Fairness, most charismatics in terms of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit separate it from Salvation and wouldn't state that if you don't speak in tongues you're not saved.

That might be true. I'm not too familiar with this group...

Back in the 80's I considered myself a charismatic or a Christian mystic. We spoke in tongues, but their interpretation of it was that you weren't really saved until you could reveal the manifestations of the Holy Spirit (like speaking in tongues). They did insinuate however that you could have total prosperity if you only had faith. Nothing could be more contrary to the truth..

I attended Oral Roberts University and a good portion of my family is Assemblies of God or Pentecostal Church of Canada. The Christian and Missionary Alliance, through whom I am ordained but no longer active, is not a Charismatic group although there was a close tie in the past with the Assemblies of God.

I've come to the point where I am not anti-charismatic, but I do think there is a lot of danger for excess in some of the areas being touched upon in this thread. I'm especially concerned about the Word church movement which ties into the prosperity gospel heresy (and I do think that in its more extreme forms it is heresy and a cult).

Their web site does seem to indicate that speaking in tongues is a necessary evidence of salvation:

The Evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit

The full consummation of the Baptism of believers in the Holy Spirit is evidenced by the initial physical
sign of speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance, and by the subsequent manifestation
of spiritual power in public testimony and service (Acts 2:4; 10:44-46; 19:2,6; 1:8)

For this reason, (in addition to the Total Prosperity ideas) , I would definitely steer clear of this church.
Not that they are not saved people, that cannot be fully determined. It depends if they are relying on the fact that they are speaking in tongues to prove that they have trusted Christ or Do they just trust Christ at His Word.

I personally do not believe in the charismaitc idea of "speaking in tongues". At least not the way I have heard most charasmatics describe it. But I also do not think it is a heaven or hell issue, unless (as I said above) they are relying on the fact they speak in tongues to prove that they are saved.

But even if they are saved, both of these beliefs (prosperity & tongues) I think can seriously hinder their spiritual growth. The bible is very clear on this that we each have different gifts. And although do believe there are blessings for those that are obedient, those blessings do not always equate to temporal prosperity as the world world see it.

Remember if we are obedient, we will follow Christ, but Christ said those that follow him will be persecuted just as He was. - Does not necessarily sound like Total Prosperity, now does it? At least not in this life, maybe in the life to come for those that rule and reign with Him.- if this is what they are referring to then I would agree with them, but based on what I have read on the website, I doubt that is what they are teaching.

But Definitely recommend to your friend to read the Bible for himself to determine if a pastor is preaching truth, because I am just a man and could be completely wrong. (But I do not think so, because if I thought I was wrong, I would think different than what I currently think, don't you think )

The Evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit

The full consummation of the Baptism of believers in the Holy Spirit is evidenced by the initial physical
sign of speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance, and by the subsequent manifestation
of spiritual power in public testimony and service (Acts 2:4; 10:44-46; 19:2,6; 1:8)

Again, just to clarify and not to discount your other points, in fairness, the language here is pretty typical of a Baptism of the Holy Spirit type of doctrine which would see this is something separate and distinct from Salvation.

I hold to a similar belief in my tradition and practise, namely that sanctification is both a process and can be marked by crisis experiences where the believer more fully surrenders to the work and and indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It's not an initial indwelling which takes place at salvation. It's a part of the growth that should continue in the believer's life as we seek by the work of the HS and our cooperation with our efforts subordinated to God's HS.

Charismatics see the Baptism of the Holy Spirit usually as a distinct experience marked by tongues as the evidence and as such doctrinally, most groups aren't claiming that non-charismatics aren't believers. They do see themselves as more scripturally and experientially sound however, so it's not unusual to see and hear them speaking down to or about other Christians.

Not defending it. Just trying to correct and point out what I think most would say about themselves.

Canuckster1127 wrote:

The Evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit

The full consummation of the Baptism of believers in the Holy Spirit is evidenced by the initial physical
sign of speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance, and by the subsequent manifestation
of spiritual power in public testimony and service (Acts 2:4; 10:44-46; 19:2,6; 1:8)

Again, just to clarify and not to discount your other points, in fairness, the language here is pretty typical of a Baptism of the Holy Spirit type of doctrine which would see this is something separate and distinct from Salvation.

I hold to a similar belief in my tradition and practise, namely that sanctification is both a process and can be marked by crisis experiences where the believer more fully surrenders to the work and and indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It's not an initial indwelling which takes place at salvation. It's a part of the growth that should continue in the believer's life as we seek by the work of the HS and our cooperation with our efforts subordinated to God's HS.

Charismatics see the Baptism of the Holy Spirit usually as a distinct experience marked by tongues as the evidence and as such doctrinally, most groups aren't claiming that non-charismatics aren't believers. They do see themselves as more scripturally and experientially sound however, so it's not unusual to see and hear them speaking down to or about other Christians.

Not defending it. Just trying to correct and point out what I think most would say about themselves.

Thanks 'Canuckster' - you echo my own points on this matter. It appears to me that their views on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit type baptism is something separate and distinct from Salvation and they view it as an evidence for an endowment of power from on high to do a task for the Lord. 1 Corinthians chapters 12 and 13 speak of this. If these 'giftings' do not reflect godly love — it becomes no more than a bunch of noise makers and these profit nothing.

I personally cannot say too much against, or for, this Church as I do not know them. That is why I would say they would be worth a visit with discernment. They are most likely from what I can garner from their web site, sincere Christians seeking a move of God by gifts of the Spirit.

They have some odd doctrines, but again it is their context in how they define these. While it is a truth that God desires to prosper his people, it is also true that one prospers through sufferings [example of Job]. I do not know if this Church holds a balanced view of prosperity, if you have a sermon note or something — that would help see what they adhere too.
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