Evidence for God from Science

But also...

The concept of Oblivion - although comforting for some would mean there would be no true justice. For instance isn't this what the Athiest believes? They could in theory do what ever they want during their lives, be as selfish as they want, because in the end they face oblivion anyway. Eat drink and be merry for tomorrow you die.

To be honest I dont know what will happen to the unbelievers - but which ever fate it is - it is our moral duty to spread the Gospel. Using the Hell card is not the right way. Telling them about the Love of God and Jesus is.

SIlvertusk.

We have this notion that the physical torment is the most crucial aspect of hell, sometimes, but really, to be separtaed from God, to not have a relationship with Him, to not be reconciled to HIm....that is the ultimate hell.

So when we are speaking to believers, we don't necessarily have to focus on the fire and brimstone characteristic to be speaking of the hell after death

Silvertusk wrote:But also...

The concept of Oblivion - although comforting for some would mean there would be no true justice. For instance isn't this what the Athiest believes? They could in theory do what ever they want during their lives, be as selfish as they want, because in the end they face oblivion anyway. Eat drink and be merry for tomorrow you die.

To be honest I dont know what will happen to the unbelievers - but which ever fate it is - it is our moral duty to spread the Gospel. Using the Hell card is not the right way. Telling them about the Love of God and Jesus is.

SIlvertusk.

but nobody ever takes into consideration what exactly might happen when they die.

say someone lives their entire life denying God and "eating, drinking, and being merry" as you put it. as they are lying on their deathbed... what do you think goes through their mind before they die? are they not overcome with a fear the likes of which they have NEVER felt before? isn't fear the ULTIMATE torment?

it would take fear of this magnitude to... i don't know... cause a scientist who spent his ENTIRE LIFE creating a theory which removes God from the picture... to renounce all of his research and his entire life's work.

i agree that simply ceasing to exist would kind of remove the sense of justice from the concept. but that isn't what im saying... obviously once a soul realizes the fatal mistake it has made, it would be absolutely overcome with the worst fear imaginable, right up until the time it is extinguished. think of it like death row... a group of prisoners who know they are going to die... do they eat, drink, and be merry? no, they are crammed into tiny cells, forced to spend every moment of the rest of their lives thinking about the fact that they will soon be no more, and their lives will be over.

Seraph wrote:Those verses don't suggest what you're suggesting. It says that unbelievers will expierience judgement in the same way that Sodom and Gomorrah did, I agree with this 100%. It does not however, suggest what your saying, that since Sodom and Gomorrah's punishment was temporary, Hell is temporary. Thus, you are twisting scripture by claiming it does. In fact, it says RIGHT IN THE VERSE that it is eternal. If it ended then it wouldn't be eternal.

I''m not certain, but I think it would be one of the "7 Wonders of the World" (I guess making it 8 or so) if there was a pair of cities in perpetual fire. You're right...it does say "RIGHT IN THE VERSE" that it is eternal. Which part of eternal am I confusing. Which part of "example" am I missing?

Seraph wrote:Tell me how your NOT ignoring these verses

"They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life" (Matt 25:46)
"If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out" (Mark 9:43)
"And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name" (Revelations 14:11)

Not ignoring, but coupled with verses such as:

NIV Matt. 10:28 wrote:...be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

NIV 2 Peter 2:6 wrote:if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly..

NIV Revelation 20:9 wrote:But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

NIV Psalm 92:5-8 wrote:How great are your works, O LORD,
how profound your thoughts!
The senseless man does not know,
fools do not understand,
that though the wicked spring up like grass
and all evildoers flourish,
they will be forever destroyed.

But you, O LORD, are exalted forever.

NIV Isaiah 34:8-10 wrote:For the LORD has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion's cause.
Edom's streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
It will not be quenched night and day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.

tommyboy605182 wrote:i agree that simply ceasing to exist would kind of remove the sense of justice from the concept.

Then what is the point of our capital punishment? Don't we understand that putting a murderer to death is really doing nothing of "justice"? How is it then the families of their victims feel a sense of justice if it's really not?
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BavarianWheels wrote:

tommyboy605182 wrote:i agree that simply ceasing to exist would kind of remove the sense of justice from the concept.

Then what is the point of our capital punishment? Don't we understand that putting a murderer to death is really doing nothing of "justice"? How is it then the families of their victims feel a sense of justice if it's really not?
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no, i think you misunderstood what i was saying about justice... did you read what i said about capital punishment and death row? people who are condemned to death by the government are crammed into tiny cells and forced to think about what they did, and the consequences. they have to live with the fear of knowing their life will soon end.

i was saying that if a soul simply ceased to exist without first realizing what it missed out on and understanding the consequence, then that would somewhat remove the justice aspect from it.

think about the recent shootings at VT and NIU, the shooters commited the worst atrocity known to man, and what happened then? they shot themselves, and died right then and there. yes they died, but it sure wasn't justice. they should have been captured and then forced to think about what they did and the consequences... THAT'S real torment right there. i was saying that perhaps hell is the same way... before a soul is completely extinguished for all eternity, it is forced to consider it's life, it's actions, and what it missed out on. once it realizes it will soon face oblivion, that's when the figurative "burning and torment" sets in.

i don't know, i wish i had more scripture to back this up, but i think as a whole the bible is pretty vague on the afterlife. i think the one thing we can all agree on is that Jesus promised eternal life for those who believe, and the consequence for those who don't is death. some form of torment is in there too, but i think that's more open to interpretation.

tommyboy605182 wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:

tommyboy605182 wrote:i agree that simply ceasing to exist would kind of remove the sense of justice from the concept.

Then what is the point of our capital punishment? Don't we understand that putting a murderer to death is really doing nothing of "justice"? How is it then the families of their victims feel a sense of justice if it's really not?
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no, i think you misunderstood what i was saying about justice... did you read what i said about capital punishment and death row? people who are condemned to death by the government are crammed into tiny cells and forced to think about what they did, and the consequences. they have to live with the fear of knowing their life will soon end.

i was saying that if a soul simply ceased to exist without first realizing what it missed out on and understanding the consequence, then that would somewhat remove the justice aspect from it.

I understand. I suppose that's what the second resurrection is for.
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BavarianWheel's This was discussed on this thread line:

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... &start=135

Below is quote from my last post there as it also applies here:

jenna wrote:"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord". Romans 6:23

BavarianWheels wrote:I was looking for B.W. and/or others to give me the answer to this...but jenna's will do. IF the price of sin is eternal fire/torment/death...did Jesus really pay the price of sin for us? If so...explain Him (Jesus) not burning and in torment still? NIV-Jude 1:7 - In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Are the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah still burning? If not, the writer is a liar! NIV-2 Peter 2:6 - if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; An example of what is going to happen to the ungodly...??

BavarianWheels, please do not confuse God justly wiping out Sodom and Gomorrah, and the ancient world of Noah's time as a proof text that God annihilates into non-existence. These happened on finite terms — mortality was extinguished so God's good plans prevail.

Those that perished where not eternally annihilated for reasons cited in my prior postings but were removed from the land of the living so they no-longer can cause harm. This is God's right to do, to mortally kill and make alive. Those that perished, their souls/corrupted spirits, were turned into Sheol where the fiery wrath of God burns. They are still there and will be so till the second death when hell and its inhabitants are tossed into the lake of fire as the bible teaches.

Note what Jude 7 really states: “They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.”

These are antitypes — examples that God repays in judgment. The fire remains nevertheless eternal, not temporal, and has nothing to do with fire and brimstone raining down destroying these cities way back when or they not existing today. Yes, the cities were laid waste because God judged these people and as it is written in Psalms, they were turned into hell — eternal fire in the afterlife.

To say otherwise creates the logical fallacy of contradiction. As Psalms 9:15-17 states the wicked are turned into hell — not soul sleep: “Jehovah is known. He has executed judgment; the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah. 17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, all the nations that forget God.” MKJV

Also note that God's wrath is given as an example of fire: Deuteronomy 32:22, "For a fire is kindled by my anger, and it burns to the depths of Sheol..." ESV

Again note that before the resurrection of Christ, Jesus gives this description of hell as a conscious afterlife:

Luke 16:23-24, "...and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'" ESV

The eternal fire is in Hell, not remaining on Sodom and Gomorrah physical earthly locations. The populace was not eternally annihilated but judged as rejecters of God and turned into Hell, right after death, where the eternal fire of God's judgment, wrath, and just recompense burns eternally.

These finite cities and people were mortally annihilated which means removed and cut off from the land of the mortal living to be judge as rejecters of God and turned into hell, forever alive as Psalms 9:15-17 declares as do other scriptures we already amply reviewed. God has the right to judge the wicked to cut them off and remove them from the land of the mortal living and turn them over to his everlasting retribution proving his justice and mercy absolute and way beyond the scope of mortal finite reasoning.

In fact, Jude tells of false brethren [Jude 4] who crept into the Church bringing false doctrine and denying Jesus Christ will one day die in judgment and then turned into hell's everlastingness. This passage is warning that these need to repent or face the consequence of joining other inhabitants in hell.

Confusion comes from finite people who can empirically annihilate mortal physical life and make mortal life cease. From this comes the notion of annihilation-ism. However people cannot kill, annihilate the soul/spirit of man just as Jesus said in Luke 12:4-5: "I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have nothing more that they can do. 5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!” And in Matthew 10:28, “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” ESV

The word destroy does not mean annihilate, or kill causing ceasing of existence. It means a state of ruin, perishing, lostness, and when Jesus means eternal destruction he means everlasting ruin — punishment just as the force of Revelation 20:10-15 states: “…and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever….15, And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

Yes, thrown into the same lake of eternal fire to suffer the same fate - tormented day and night forever and ever without end — not extinction. The force of the words defies such non-existent extinction and the word eternal destruction does mean everlasting ruin, lostness, perishing banished from God forever: proving God's justice and mercy absolute and way beyond the scope of human mortal finite reasoning.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, “…in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might…” ESV

Jude 4-25, 2 Peter2:1-22 message is not an example for the annihilationist point of view but rather a warning to false brethren that as certain as God's fiery judgment fell on the ancient world, judgment will come to them without warning, and they will join other rejecters and defilers in hell's eternal flames — that is the example used within those pages.

Lastly:

The doctrine of Annihilation in reality denies the resurrection of Jesus Christ as even being remotely possible. I can hear the Annihilationist scream —'What you say — no we do not do what you claim here!' However if we are to follow the annihilationist line of logic tree to its conclusion then whenever the word 'death' is used for 'mortal death,' absolute annihilation must be read into its meaning to remain true to the doctrine.

Hebrew 2:9, “But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.”

If Jesus tasted death for everyone and by his death he paid the penalty for sin, which by the way the bible does teach is the death penalty [Gen 2:17]. Then Jesus would have to been annihilated into non-existence in order to taste death for everyone and pay the price for humanity's sin.

This did not happen. Instead, if Jesus tasted death for everyone by going to the underworld for three days and nights preaching to the spirits in prison and then leading those righteous held captive by death to his heavenly domain. This then would prove God does not annihilate into non-existence for he did rise from the dead. [Ephesians 4:8-10, 1 Peter 3:18-19]

If the annihilation says of 1 Peter 3:18-19 that Jesus was put to death in the flesh, how could that happen since Daniel 12-1-3 has not yet occurred and even then for Jesus to taste death for all, in the flesh, he would have to be annihilated into non-existence as that is where the logic of annihilation has to ultimately lead.

How can Jesus be put to death in the flesh if the flesh did not taste annihilation? How can Jesus taste death for everyone, and not be annihilated to make propitiation for sins and still pay the penalty for sin if death's sentence means annihilation? How could Jesus be made alive from annihilations state and alive in the spirit?

1 Peter 3:18-19, “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison…”ESV

Of course you can wiggle out of this dilemma by proclaiming Christ sinlessness and divinity but according to the annihilationist view — mortal death can only lead to annihilation to satisfy the death penalty God declared. For Christ to die for sins means he would have to been made extinct in order to satisfy the just requirements of God.

Would God be just making a sinless one extinct? Or maybe there is life after death after all, either eternal life with God or everlasting fire, punishment, deep darkness, a place of everlasting ruin where just recompense forever burns darkly for those choosing rebellion.

As Stated Before:

You who defend absolute extinction —makes God's mercy not everlasting to everlasting as His word says it is but again in your doctrine, everlasting is not everlasting and therefore God cannot be either.

What proves mercy true — a life sentence or extinction? What demonstrates love's reality - a life sentence or extinction? What express honest goodness - a life sentence or extinction? What do you deserve - a life sentence or extinction?

Extinction for finite sins??? That defies mercy! love! and God's goodness! Who should God serve? - man because men find God's absolute justice repugnant because God does not make one absolutely extinct on man's terms and justification? Or rather because of God's justice, He gives those that reject Him what they want — a place without God forever as He does will that these be served just recompense to prove He is God true to himself and no one else.

Deny it all you like. You are more interested in appealing to men rather than knowing God. Eternal absolute extinction does not even make the devil tremble or the worst serial killer care. They would have gotten away with all their crimes as well as proved to God himself is a liar by proving that God has no absolute mercy, no justice, a God of the dead [absolute extinct] and not the living, taking his gift of life away....

End of Quote from Prior Post....

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B. W. wrote:Again note that before the resurrection of Christ, Jesus gives this description of hell as a conscious afterlife:

Luke 16:23-24, "...and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'" ESV

B.W., please do not confuse God's words in a PARABLE placing heaven and hell within sight and sound of each other as a proof text of a conscious afterlife...if you take part of this as evidence, you must make the whole of it as your belief...that being that heaven and hell are so close together that people in agony can converse with those in paradise. It would be some miracle for God to wipe every tear when the sight of eternal torment is right outside your heavenly sliding door.

Incidently...I don't know how true it would be for a person actively burning in pain and agony would be able to carry on any conversation other than simply screams of pain...do you? Either hell and God's "wrath" isn't all that it's cracked up to be or God's "wrath" is irreversible and the fires of hell, just like the EXAMPLE of Sodom and Gomorrah, do subside when there is NOTHING left to burn.

Second...so there is a Hell now...and then the damned are moved into some new diggs? From "hell" to the "Lake of Fire Hell"? Interesting how God moves people around when one can't be any better or worse than the other by definition.

If we have it your way (actual eternal torment never ceasing and living forever) then the line of "the wages of sin is death" is a lie. The line should be "the wages of sin is everlasting torment in hell burning endlessly".

Believing in Annihilation of the damned denies the resurrection of Christ? How so? Annihilationism denies the resurrection of any person God deems fit to ever be alive again. Afterall it is God that raised Christ (Acts 4:10, 13:37, Rom. 6:4, 1 Thess. 1:10) the innocent Lamb of which there was no sin in Him. Death came through a man and so life also came through a man.

NIV - 1 Corinthians 15:20-26 wrote:But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

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Hell isn't separation from God:

• A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." (Rev 14:9-11)
  
  "As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure. From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD. "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind." (Is 66:22-24)

The Lake of Fire was created for the devil and his angels. I suppose those who believe it is just a place of destruction also believe that the devil and his angels will just be destroyed, too. I take eternal torment and phrases like "for ever and ever" to mean just that. It's forever. It is actual torment in the very presence of God and us for all of eternity.

And to the OP, I don't think it's lazy to talk about reality. Unless, of course, we believe John was lazy when he wrote about it, or that Jesus was lazy when he talked about it.

Tommyboy and Bavarian Wheels,

Is abortion wrong or right?

If you hold a pro-life position as the superior moral high road due to God's law then answer me this:

Is God pro-life? Or Pro-abortion?

Annihilationism is the equivalent, morally and legally, to abortion because the results are the same — non-being.

If it is wrong to abort the unborn then why is okay for God to abort the living into a state of non-being?

If you support a pro-life position. Where did this come from ? You and I were made in God's image and likeness of being made intelligent and alive. We are fearfully and wonderfully made. Yet, how can one hold a pro-life position concerning abortion and not believe that God also has a pro-life position way beyond the ability that our finite minds can fully grasp? How then can God exterminate life, his gift of life that makes each of us fearfully and wonderfully made into a state of absolute extinction?

Jesus himself declares that God is a God of the living and not the dead in the book of Matthew. The book of Romans speaks that all of God's gifts and callings are without reneging. God gave humanity the Gift of life (you are alive are you not?) and place eternity in all our hearts, Genesis 2:7, Ecc 3:11-14.

If Gods gifts and the callings of God are irrevocable, Romans 11:29, how can God remain true to his own standards if he annihilates into a state of absolute non-being?

Bible declares: that God is the Rock, and his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he, Deu 32:4. How can God annihilate in absolute non-being and still be perfect, holy, and without iniquity?

Job 34:11-17, “For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him. 12 Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice. 13 Who gave him charge over the earth, and who laid on him the whole world? 14 If he should set his heart to it and gather to himself his spirit and his breath, 15 all flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust. 16 "If you have understanding, hear this; listen to what I say. 17 Shall one who hates justice govern? Will you condemn him who is righteous and mighty…”ESV

Yes, God is capable of extinguishing all life, mortal and spiritual, into a state of non-being but to do so would prove God not all powerful, not just, not without iniquity, and not perfect, not holy, not able to keep his word. In fact it would make him defy his own standards of mercy, justice, grace, righteousness, perfection; holiness, etc. Causing him to defy his own gift of life he gives freely as he so wills.

People ask all the time, why did God allow Cherub to rebel and cause evil? Answer is simple: Iniquity was found in the being, not place by God, but found, Ez 28:14-15. What is iniquity you may ask? It is the use of manipulating goodness for evil and mischievous purposes to gain dominion. This being knew these things about God and thought he could get away with rebellion.

How can someone all powerful be all powerful if they deny freedom of reason, choice, and even evil to come into its own? Would denying these really prove one is all powerful? Can you answer this? To be all powerful means to be all powerful in all things, circumstances, events. Yet, many people find fault with God governing his own all powerfulness by the nature of his standards of his unfathomable love.

To be all loving does not negate punishment. Some argue that an all loving God would never dare send one to an eternal hell. Yet, Godly love lets a person come into his or her own or it is not love. If one does not want God, a place is made where they can eternally reside. Many find fault with this but God is fair, just, righteous, holy, perfect, etc and etc, or he ceases to be God worthy to be praised.

To be all powerful means to be all powerful in all things, circumstances, events. To deny any would make being all powerful cease as an all powerful being cannot control his own fear. Think on this a while longer.

Yes, God has the sovereign right to make mortal life cease and then usher one into a state of spiritual life to just judgment beyond the grave because he made us, according to his own will, a spiritual eternal being [ Ecc 3:11-16 ]. He can exercise the right to kill and make alive. Mortal life ceases but life is an eternal gift God gave to humanity and for him to renege on this gift would make God not all powerful. Therefore, life continues after the grave, after death, forever.

Thus is God truly pro-life. God will not abort this gift of life — spiritual life beyond the grave. That is contrary to his mercy and great love. Abortion defies love, mercy, and disproves responsibility for maintaining and nurturing life. God is a God of the living and not of the dead [ Matthew 12:27 ].

Bible teaches from Jesus' own words that the Evil one comes to steal, kill, and destroy (render useless) [ John 10:10 ]. It is the evil one who desires people to be blasted off into non-existence, as this would disprove God being who he says he: A God of mercy, justice, grace, righteousness, perfect, without sin, without fault, a God of love, A God all knowing, A God all powerfully able to work through all circumstance, scenarios, and things, to reveal and make his glory known . Such wisdom as this our finite minds cannot fully grasp.

Man and women would love nothing better than the state of non-existence as punishment and so would the devil. The evil one comes to steal, kill, and destroy. In perfect correlation - annihilation, universalism, and soul sleep doctrines move towards the same goals in complete defiance of all who God is

I dare you to prove otherwise…
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tommyboy605182 wrote: atheist: I don't believe in God.
christian: Don't you wonder what will happen to you after you die?
atheist: I will cease to exist and my body will rot in the ground.
christian: Maybe you're right... But why are you okay with that?
If you could avoid it, wouldn't you?

I just thought I'd go back to this original question. All I know is that no one in their right mind would not want to go there. But then there are some people who would like to take the kamikaze approach to life and go down in a flaming fireball for nothing. Even Richard Dawkins established a scale of 1 to 7, 1 being that person is utterly certain that there is a God and 7 being that there utterly isn't. Richard puts himself as a 6 because he thinks that it is unwise to commit himself to the notion that there isn't no God.

B. W. wrote:Tommyboy and Bavarian Wheels,

Is abortion wrong or right?

If you hold a pro-life position as the superior moral high road due to God's law then answer me this:

Is God pro-life? Or Pro-abortion?

Annihilationism is the equivalent, morally and legally, to abortion because the results are the same — non-being.

If it is wrong to abort the unborn then why is okay for God to abort the living into a state of non-being?

You're asking me if abortion is right or wrong and then to judge God from a finite mind...when you've been arguing this "finite vs. infinite"?

LOL.
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B. W. wrote:I dare you to prove otherwise…

So it's gonna be like that from you?

You're whole argument is that those in hell will live forever in torment when Romans clearly states:

NIV Romans 6:23 wrote:For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in* Christ Jesus our Lord.

I guess Paul lies.

NIV John 11:14 wrote:So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead,

I guess Jesus lies too

NIV Joshua 1:2 wrote:Moses my servant is dead.

I guess the OT God also lies
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