Evidence for God from Science

Posted: **Mon Feb 07, 2005 8:36 am**

Well hominids to me are alot like man, or at least the closest to modern man. So they are special in my opinion. granted something is special, I naturally want to investigate how this special thing fits in to the picture of the christian religion.

Do you not agree that homonids are rather special?

Now I think I've been very patient.

thanks for being patient

Can you tell me why you think a reason needs to exist?

Maybe its a failure on my part to convey myself, but I did not say a reason need to exist. I merely wanted to know if in christianity, do they view gods action as arbitary or with reason. I wouldnt contend you if you said god as viewed by christians do not need a reason to do the things he do. What I'm interested in is the christians position, not whether it is right or wrong.

And secondly, your question still seems trivial as it pertains to God.

Well, it wasnt trivial to me. Wouldnt you want to know why god did certain things ?

Hmm... with that out of the way, do you want to develop on this speculation?

Some speculate God created the millions of Earth life before us as apart of His creativity, and that He cared about us (humanity) and desired to build up a rich source biodeposits for us that we could make use of to enrich our lives.

or shall we leave it as you dont know why god created homonids.

Posted: **Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:07 pm**

Out of curiosity, what proof is there that hominids weren't simply another race of humans, like we have white, black, asian, etc.? As in, the difference is only superficial, and perhaps they got assimilated into the rest of the human race?

Posted: **Mon Feb 07, 2005 5:25 pm**

nameless wrote:I'll leave evolution aside now. Maybe you can clarify the christian's position about evolution later.

I can clarify the science position on evolution, it can be proven that micoevolution has happined, but the first life part of Evolution is kind of a hickup, the Law of Biogenisis PROVES that life has to come from life, it has never been witnessed to come from anything dead or nothing at all.
Abiogenesis is a theory that inanimate matter can transform into living matter. Spontaneous generation. but it is just that a THEORY.

Question
Who/What made the first life?
A living God did.

My Christian position on evolution is that it is limited to Microevolution, and is the will of the Living God.

Posted: **Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:21 am**

he Law of Biogenisis PROVES that life has to come from life, it has never been witnessed to come from anything dead or nothing at all.

Prove is a strong word. If you are familiar with logic, you would realize that to prove life has to come from life, you have to show that abiogenisis is impossible.

I find your reasoning rather awkward. One would only need to observe that all life has to come from life which then dies. And to apply your reasoning.

Who made the first life?
A 'living god who then dies' made the first life.

Who/What made the first life?
A living God did.

If a god was already living, wouldnt that make him the first life?
The natural question would be, so how did god came about then?
If you do not accept god did not came from another life, you have shown abiogensis. And whatever reasoning you gave for gods coming into existence can be use for the bacteria.

My Christian position on evolution is that it is limited to Microevolution

I'll get back to you on this, I need to do abit of reading on the subject.

Posted: **Tue Feb 08, 2005 2:01 am**

As a Christian I believe that God created all life.
How it was created can not be explained by the laws of Science.
Laws of Science have been Proven.
Theories have not.
The law of Biogenisis and the fact it is a law not a theory proves that Abiogenisis will never be proven possable, it will remain only a theory.

Gods word says he is the begining and the end. As Christians some take it that god has always been. Nothing about god is logical. What God is goes beyond what we emagine God to be. God does not have a body like us, God is a powerful spirit. And yes God is first life, but unlike us God will never suffer death, he is already in the eternity that he promises his Children who follow his instructions and researches and studies his word to uncover the simple steps he put in place so that all Children of God would have the opportunity to earn their place for eternity.

You asked what we thought and I have told you what I think. but you sound like you have already made up your mind.

Posted: **Tue Feb 08, 2005 3:33 am**

The law of Biogenisis and the fact it is a law not a theory proves that Abiogenisis will never be proven possable, it will remain only a theory.

Firstly laws are subjected to change.
From my understanding of biogensis as explain by you, it merely states that all observable life comes from life, If you go on to conclude that the observation implies life has to come from life, you have commited logical fallacy.

You asked what we thought and I have told you what I think. but you sound like you have already made up your mind

Of course I have preconceive knoweldge on things, but it does not mean its not liable to change.

Gods word says he is the begining and the end. As Christians some take it that god has always been. Nothing about god is logical. What God is goes beyond what we emagine God to be. God does not have a body like us, God is a powerful spirit. And yes God is first life, but unlike us God will never suffer death, he is already in the eternity that he promises his Children who follow his instructions and researches and studies his word to uncover the simple steps he put in place so that all Children of God would have the opportunity to earn their place for eternity.

Thanks for your elucidation on a christian views of god's nature. May I also enquire how does a christian obtain the information for the nature of his god.

Posted: **Tue Feb 08, 2005 3:35 am**

Also would any proponents of biogensis implies god etc' like to answer to some of the contradictions which I have raised.

Posted: **Tue Feb 08, 2005 3:53 am**

nameless wrote: Thanks for your elucidation on a christian views of god's nature. May I also enquire how does a christian obtain the information for the nature of his god.

We obtain our impression of god by reading, studying and researching the word of God. As is one of his commands in the bible when he tells us to prove all things. 1TH 5:21 Prove all things, hold fast to the good.

I believe that john Clayton sums it up best with his report on who created god

WHO CREATED GOD?

It is easy to make an argument for God's existence from a cosmological standpoint. As the years have gone by, a growing amount of scientific data has accumulated which negates atheistic assumptions about how matter and the cosmos came into existence and how it has arrived at its present condition. As a science teacher and public lecturer on the compatibility of belief in God and science, I have, been impressed with an increasing awareness on the part of many scientists and theologians that science and religion are symbiotic disciplines.
One question which inevitably comes up in a discussion of this nature is what is the origin of God? If God created matter/energy, and designed the systems that have propelled matter into its present arrangement, who or what accomplished that for God? Why is it any more reasonable to believe that God has always “been” than it is to say that matter has always “been”? As Carl Sagan has said, “If we say that God has always been, why not save a step and conclude that the universe has always been?” (Cosmos, p. 257).

From a purely scientific standpoint, it is easy to demonstrate that matter cannot be eternal in nature. The universe is expanding from what appears to be a beginning point in space/time, which appears to be a one time event. Hydrogen is the basic fuel of the cosmos, powering all stars and other energy sources in space. If the fuel of the universe has been used eternally, that fuel will eventually be depleted, but the evidence is that the cosmological gas gauge, while moving toward “empty,” is yet a long way from being there—a condition incompatible with an eternal universe. The second law of thermodynamics insists that the cosmos is moving toward a condition of disorder, sometimes referred to as “heat death.” Even in an oscillating universe, things ultimately run out of energy and “die.” All of these evidences, and several others we have not made reference to, show that matter cannot be eternal, as Dr. Sagan and his associates would like to believe. However, this does not mean that we automatically accept the hypothesis that God is the Creator. Why is it not equally invalid to suggest that God has always been?

The problem here is that many people have a mistaken concept of God. If we conceive of God as physical, anthropomorphic (like man) being, the question of God's origin is valid. However, such a concept of God is alien to the Bible and to common sense. Consider the following descriptions of God from the Bible:

John 4: 24
God is a Spirit:...
Matthew 16:17
...for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my father which is in heaven.

Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that He should...;

Obviously, the descriptions and concepts of God given in these passages are that God is a spiritual entity. He exists outside of the three-dimensional, physical world in which we live.
The Bible further supports this concept of God in the following passages:

Jeremiah 23:23-24
Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? ...Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.
2 Chronicles 2:6
But who is able to build a house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain Him?...

Acts 17:28
For in Him we live, and move, and have our being;...

Not only is God described as being outside space, but He is also described as being outside of time. Consider the following:

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Psalm 102:27
But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.

Acts 1:7
...It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in His power.

If God is a being that is unlimited in time, and if He has access to every piece of time as if it were now, the question of who created God is an invalid question. The problem is like asking a student to draw a four-sided triangle. The terminology is self-contradictory.
When asked “Who or what created God?,” we are making the assumption that God was created. If God exists outside of time and space, and if He is the Creator of time and space, He obviously was not created! God began the beginning! This is why He says, “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.”

God created time. The statement of Genesis, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth,” is making reference to the creation of time. The reason that things like heat death, the expansion of the universe, and the depletion of hydrogen do not apply to God is because He is outside of time. God has always been. He not only began time; He will also end it. When time ends, all matter and all mankind will enter eternity—a timeless condition free of the negative things that time brings upon us now.

2 Peter 3:10-11
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,...
Revelation 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

The agnostic position that there is nothing that can be said to support God's existence that cannot be said against that existence cannot, in the opinion of the author, stand in the face of this evidence.

© John N. Clayton

the report and more can be found @ http://www.doesgodexist.org/

Posted: **Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:46 pm**

nameless,

I never said any other species of humans existed. Rather, I was asking about hominids.

i'm sorry, but you did. hominid refers to members of the family of humans. and since you said originally:

What is the Christian take on the other homo genes such as homo habilis and homo erectus?

you must have been talking about other human species, since homo habilis and homo erectus are hominids.

you must have meant: hominidae--all species of the last common ancestors of humans/apes.

Well, the theories are based on fossil findings.

go do more research, i think you'll be shocked at what you're going to learn. well, assuming that you're here to learn and not just refine the art of being annoying.

Posted: **Wed Feb 09, 2005 11:32 pm**

What defines man is his distinct soul that allows him to have a relationship with God. scientists can't find a religious artifact dating before 50,000 years.

Also the idea of religion resulting from evolution would defy the point of evolution. The idea of religion works to decrease one's chances for reproduction or survival. If someone is spending his time creating some kind of ritual object then he's wasting valuable tools for hunting, time for hunting or not looking for a mate.

If you just spend some time thinking about this without trying to frantically come up with a counter argument then you just might find God.

Posted: **Fri Feb 11, 2005 1:24 am**

i'm sorry, but you did. hominid refers to members of the family of humans. and since you said originally:

K, rightly pointed out. Sorry for the mix up, I was indeed refering to hominidae.

go do more research, i think you'll be shocked at what you're going to learn

Could you refer me to some of the sources which has convince you of the fallacy of science?

well, assuming that you're here to learn and not just refine the art of being annoying.

I have tried my best to be polite in all my questioning. It would actually reflect badly on your religion if you find me queries on christianity annoying as it confirms the stereotypical view that religious people are predujicial and close mindeded.

Hi vart,

Also the idea of religion resulting from evolution would defy the point of evolution. The idea of religion works to decrease one's chances for reproduction or survival. If someone is spending his time creating some kind of ritual object then he's wasting valuable tools for hunting, time for hunting or not looking for a mate

At least in the case of human, propagation of the species is more then just hunting and mating. Evolution would have favoured the band of humans which were more esoterically inclined, who engaged in rudimental forms of arts, science and religion.

If you just spend some time thinking about this without trying to frantically come up with a counter argument then you just might find God.

As a non-christian, 'frantically coming up with a counter' is the impression I get from christians. I always cant shake of this prejudice: Christians are people who are desperate to believe in the existence of an after life, since they fear death. Therefore they construct all these shaky and baseless arguments without emperical proof to convince themselves that an after life exist.
I know this may not be true, but its so deeply entrenched in me that I cant help but feel that christians live in denial.
[/quote]

Posted: **Fri Feb 11, 2005 1:52 am**

There is more evidence that points to the existence of God than away from the existence of God.
Gods word says that everyone is born with a measure of faith.
A believer takes this measure and investigates to find a flicker and from there our faith grows.
A nonbeliever just lets their faith shrivel up, they often construct their own idea of what god is, just so that they can tear it down

People who don't believe in God don't understand and don't even attempt to understand that unlike us God is not limited. To argue against a God they limit his abilities and power. they will not accept that there are just some things that humanity can not passably know or even emagine.

You acuse us of being blind in our faith. How many believers in the world have had near death experiences?
if these guys witnessed a crime, there word would be good enough, but since we are witnesses to something you can't see and/or emagine people who do not believe would rather call us liers.

Posted: **Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:35 am**

I always cant shake of this prejudice: Christians are people who are desperate to believe in the existence of an after life, since they fear death.

Tell that to the Knights Templar.

If anything, atheists fear death even more, because God or not, death is the end of you.

Posted: **Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:24 am**

nameless wrote:As a non-christian, 'frantically coming up with a counter' is the impression I get from christians. I always cant shake of this prejudice: Christians are people who are desperate to believe in the existence of an after life, since they fear death.

I'm really thinking you need to get a grip on informal fallacies, as you seem to commit so many I'm not sure whether you understand reason.

As stated elsewhere... it is not enough to dismiss a position (i.e., Christianity) because you think people are in some way caused to hold their beliefs. This is to commit the genetic fallacy. Whether or not we are caused to hold a belief (such as one in an afterlife), such has no impact upon the validity or reasonableness of our beliefs. And according to my knowledge and experiences, I am confident my beliefs are correct, and rationally sound.

Kurieuo.

Posted: **Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:41 am**

nameless wrote:Could you refer me to some of the sources which has convince you of the fallacy of science?

Strawman.

nameless wrote:I have tried my best to be polite in all my questioning. It would actually reflect badly on your religion if you find me queries on christianity annoying as it confirms the stereotypical view that religious people are predujicial and close mindeded.

Ad hominem.

Evidence for God from Science

evolution questions