Evidence for God from Science

Dayage,

I don't belong to any denomination. Although I like the Quakers a lot for their teaching of non-violence.

In Genesis 2:16 the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

...... And on that day surely They did not die.

4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

... 22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

I think that the nachash tells the truth ?

Who is the tempter here ?

If I tell my children that they can eat anything in the fridge except the chocolate pudding. Which do you think they will want most ?

God creates the desire to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. And the Nachash encourages them to eat from it.

I do not think that the nachash is satan. Who created the term satan for the nachash ???

Are you familiar with the Jewish Dreidl ? What are the 4 letters on the Dreidel ? What does the Chanucah game teach us about the creation story ?

NGSH spun in one direction and HSGN in the other......

Dayage,

Regarding Luke 17:21 and "among you" I guess you can read the Gospel of Thomas for support.

Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."" Gospel of Thomas 3

What does Jesus mean when he says : John 14:20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

When the Holy Spirit comes upon his disciples is the "Father" not within them also ?

Essene,

The Serpent (Satan- Rev. 12:9, 13-17, 20:2) told a half truth. And a whole lie (when he contradicted God, who cannot lie- Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18). God said they would die (truth). Satan said they would not (lie).

4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
... 22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

They died spiritually that day. That is why they hid from God. Sin brings shame and that is what they were feeling.
God wanted them to learn about evil from Him without having to sin and therefore experience it. This sin brought on judgment. God knows about evil, but does not have to practice it to know about it.

By the way it is not the "Tree of Knowledge," it is the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil."

If I tell my children that they can eat anything in the fridge except the chocolate pudding. Which do you think they will want most ?

Your children have a sin nature; Adam and Eve did not.

God creates the desire to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. And the Nachash encourages them to eat from it.

God does not create evil.

As I pointed out, Luke 17:21 can be and is translated both ways. The context is the key and it could go either way. I am glad to see you are understanding it as the Holy Spirit indwelling believers in Jesus only.

God does not tempt people to sin (James 1:13-14)
"Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust."

Satan does tempt (Matt. 4:1-10; Mark 1:13; Luke 4:2; 1 Cor.7:5; Thess. 3:5; etc)
He lies and deceives (Gen. 3:13; II Cor. 11:3; 1 Tim. 2:14; Rev. 12:9, 20:10)

I do not care about games. I care about what the text says.

Dayage:

God wanted them to learn about evil from Him without having to sin and therefore experience it. This sin brought on judgment. God knows about evil, but does not have to practice it to know about it.

Where does scripture teach this ? I have not read this in Genesis or any other book of the Bible.

Where does it say that Adam and Eve die spiritually ? You are taking liberties with scripture. Interpolating and extrapolating.

God says : "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

He says "die" not "spiritually die"

And when Adam is reunited "spiritually" with God through Christ. He is not dead spiritually.

I agree with you:

God does not tempt us, He places the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden with us. (this is not a temptation)
God does not create evil, He created the nachash (serpent as you interpret - this is not evil)

God created all there is. Everything come from God and returns to God. Our every cell is comprised completely of God.

God created the Universe out of "nothing" (ayin).... "All" flows from God and is a part of God.

I think we were getting carried away here:

Essene wrote:God created all there is. Everything comes from God and returns to God. Our every cell is comprised completely of God.

The idea that God is all or in all represents the views of pantheism and pan-en-theism. It is most definitely not biblical Christianity.

I'm just checking...carry on.

FL

Essene,

Where does scripture teach this ?

It does not, that I know of, but it makes sense. If eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was a sin, then God was to be the supplier of the knowledge.

Where does it say that Adam and Eve die spiritually ?

There is more than one kind of death in the Bible. Romans 5:12-21 speaks of the spiritual death od Adam

Romans 6 speaks of death to sin. 1 Cor. 15:20-22 speaks of physical death.

And when Adam is reunited "spiritually" with God through Christ. He is not dead spiritually.

RIGHT

God does not create evil, He created the nachash (serpent as you interpret - this is not evil)

As I showed, the Bible teaches that the Serpent is Satan - Rev. 12:9, 13-17, 20:2. Satan was not created evil. He sinned and became evil and then lied to Eve in order to get her to sin.

God created all there is. Everything come from God and returns to God. Our every cell is comprised completely of God. God created the Universe out of "nothing" (ayin).... "All" flows from God and is a part of God.

Ayin is a Hebrew letter. It is also a word meaning "eye."

FL is completely correct when he said:

The idea that God is all or in all represents the views of pantheism and pan-en-theism. It is most definitely not biblical Christianity.

Narada, the ancient Hindu philosopher:

"Never utter these words: 'I do not know this -- therefore it is false.' "
"One must study to know, know to understand, understand to judge."

Comparing kids being told what to not eat in the fridge to God's command of what not to eat is ludicruos. First, sin had not entered mankind.

The serpent is the one who tempts. that is obvious in the text. “Has God indeed said, 'You shall not eat of every tree of the garden'?”
Very crafty. He says, "EVERY." The serpent didn't ask, "did God say not to touch that one tree." Which she would have answered, "yes that is exactly what God said."

This causes Eve to question the whole thing, and redirect her focus. Before it was on the abundance of God, not the one forbidden tree. The big problem in the whole thing is that Eve should have run to God. Having a theological discussion without God is sin. And that is exactly what happened. And this leads to all kind of thinking, just like we've seen displayed on this thread.

You should visit the Atheistbus Forum and debate with those guys.

The Christians aren't doing so well. And an Atheist bus Ad will be coming to a town near you.

http://atheistbus.ca/forum/

Essene wrote:You should visit the Atheistbus Forum and debate with those guys.

Atheists are fools. Debating with fools is senseless.* I will answer an atheist's questions about my faith when one asks but will not debate with them. Similarly, I play Frisbee with my dog when she asks but I don't try to explain to her why a Frisbee flies. Anyway, she doesn't care why a Frisbee flies...just like an atheist doesn't care about God. (Unlike atheists, however, my dog isn't a hypocrite...so she never asks why a Frisbee flies.)

FL

*There are some exceptions: in a Forum setting - in person - where others are witnessing the debate but not participating, a good debater can have an impact on wishy-washy observers. Ravi Zacharias comes to mind. However, any Christian going to an internet forum hosted by & for atheists is...misguided at best.

If we take a look at 2 Corinthians 11:3-14, we see that "the Serpent" in the garden of Eden, was Satan (Lucifer) "The Angel of Light" himself, who beguiled Eve in the Garden of Eden. Satan used his intelligence and his beauty and beguiled Eve. He isn't called a Serpent in a literal sense, but it is a title of his. E.W. Bullinger States in his Companion Bible Appendix 19, that "it is no different from when Dan is called a "Snake" in Genesis 49.17, when Nero is called a "Lion" in 2 Timothy 4.17, when Herod is called a "Fox" (Luke 13.22); or when Judah is called a "Lions Whelp"."

Dominic wrote:If we take a look at 2 Corinthians 11:3-14, we see that "the Serpent" in the garden of Eden, was Satan (Lucifer) "The Angel of Light" himself, who beguiled Eve in the Garden of Eden. Satan used his intelligence and his beauty and beguiled Eve. He isn't called a Serpent in a literal sense, but it is a title of his. E.W. Bullinger States in his Companion Bible Appendix 19, that "it is no different from when Dan is called a "Snake" in Genesis 49.17, when Nero is called a "Lion" in 2 Timothy 4.17, when Herod is called a "Fox" (Luke 13.22); or when Judah is called a "Lions Whelp"."

Good point Dominic... There are different views of the Hebrew word "nachash." From the Companion Bible, Bullinger classifies the Genesis snake as a figure of speech (Hypocatastasis) the same as serpents in (Num. 21: 6,9). Hebrew for Nachash, a shining one. The old serpent (2 Cor. 11:3), an angel of light, a shining one (2 Cor. 11:14). He also gives an example of "nachash" used in Numbers 21:8. and as the figure of speech Hypocatastasis.

http://levendwater.org/companion/append19.html

But interesting enough, others like Heiser interpret the Hebrew word for "snake" as a luminous divine being and not an animal of any kind. That being may have had some sort of serpentine appearance but was not a literal snake. In this case Heiser doers not interpret the word as a figure of speech like Bullinger .. Others however think it was a literal snake.

Just a thought..

God says : "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

He says "die" not "spiritually die"

It doesn't matter if the death referred to is spiritual or physical because we are still "in that day."

I can tell you that there's more than one snake in the garden out there in the world today and quite a few flys in the ointments as well.

In my opinion, the 'snake or serpent' we see in Genesis 3 is not a literal snake as we know. I believe that satan took on some familiar form and hence Eve did not find it strange to continue the conversation. And, as per Genesis 3:14, that 'creature' was cursed to look more like the snake we know today, both physically (crawl on the belly) and personality-wise. It doesn't make much sense for God to say 'you will go on your belly' if the snake was already crawling on it's belly.