Evidence for God from Science

Thanks for the link.

I don't think that divorce is high because of soft laws on it though. I think if you raise your kids the right way, and tell them to marry in their thirties, a monogamus marriage would work out pretty well.

My Accounting teacher said that most divorces are about money. Obviously it's more complicated than that, but this would be another plus for polygamy because each spouse having their own job would be better finacially.

Yes, Church fathers did have more than one wife (though there's very little info on the Apostles themselves anyway).

In fact:
1 Tim 3:2 Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife...

This states that not only Christians, but church elders themselves had many wives. Paul suggests that they shouldn't because it will take too much time off their hands. Sorry if that isn't the best example in the world; if I looked really hard I most likely could find real proof, but we're all kidding ourselves if we think that polygamy wasn't totally accepted by Christians in the 1st century. For now, here's a section of a webpage on the history of polygamy:

The cause of multiple marriage's fall in the West may with certainty be ascribed to its culture whose roots are not biblical but pagan Greek. The Hebraic culture and its biblical tradition of plural marriage first came to be seriously eroded when Alexander the Great appeared on the Middle Eastern scene. The activities of Alexander and his successors led to the rise of the infamous antichrist Antiochus Epiphanes whom we remember at Hanukkah each year. They began to increasingly impose Hellenic (Greek) culture on the nations they conquered. This clash between Yahweh's Torah (Law) and Greek humanism led to an attempt to exterminate the Jewish people and their laws altogether...This same Hellenic culture swiftly blended with the emergent Christianity in the first and subsequent centuries and created, first, a watered-down, and then a false Gospel called Catholicism which attempted to entirely erase Christianity's Hebraic roots.

http://www.nccg.org/fecpp/book/index.html


Please don't ask anymore questions. It's not that I don't like addressing them, it's just that I said I would end this subject soon so I am. Thanks for hearing me out!

Shirtless wrote:Yes, Church fathers did have more than one wife (though there's very little info on the Apostles themselves anyway).

In fact:
1 Tim 2:3 Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife...

Hello Shirtless

Sorry for the below as I like being Through but what Version of the Bible are you using?
NKJV - 1Ti 3:2 - A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach;
New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson

NASB - 1Ti 3:2 - An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation

RSV - 1Ti 3:2 - Now a bishop must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, dignified, hospitable, an apt teacher,
Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.

Webster - 1Ti 3:2 - A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
Noah Webster Version 1833 Info

Young - 1Ti 3:2 - it behoveth, therefore, the overseer to be blameless, of one wife a husband, vigilant, sober, decent, a friend of strangers, apt to teach,
Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info

Darby - 1Ti 3:2 - The overseer then must be irreproachable, husband of one wife, sober, discreet, decorous, hospitable, apt to teach;
J.N.Darby Translation 1890 Info

ASV - 1Ti 3:2 - The bishop therefore must be without reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, orderly, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
American Standard Version 1901 Info

HNV - 1Ti 3:2 - The overseer therefore must be without reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, modest, hospitable, good at teaching;
Hebrew Names Version 2000 Info

Vulgate - 1Ti 3:2 - oportet ergo episcopum inreprehensibilem esse unius uxoris virum sobrium prudentem ornatum hospitalem doctorem
Jerome's Latin Vulgate 405 A.D. Info



No Problem... No more questions asked

Thanks again
Tim

(NIV) New International Version (my personal favorite)

it is right that we should love anyone we have sex with (prevents diseases, ensures family bond, ensures proper/sound parenting of children, etc.), and if you truly love someone then there is no reason for divorce...you'd both be willing to work anything out. having sex with someone that you are not willing to remain with forever and divorcing someone are both acts which defile love. since God is love, it would make sense that he would be against divorce and premarital sex.

Shirtless wrote:(NIV) New International Version (my personal favorite)

That Scripture however being quoted is wrong and taken out of Context... As you see from my above Scriptures none use the word "but". I am not aware of any Apostles or Church Fathers being polygamists? Do you have more information then just that particular Passage.
However I did find this Interesting site concerning the Old Testament Saints.
http://www.christianpolygamy.info/history/

I agree that Genesis with Adam and Eve is not talking about marriage, though i wonder is the word after that verse when it says Adam and his wife, is that teh same word that could be made to be woman, or what is the thought process there on when she is later refered to as his wife?

I believe that it is not about sex but being truely in love, and that only one man and one woman, as created by God to be one, can do this.

I believe that one flesh does not refer to sex, or atleast not only to sex. One flesh i think basically means being truely in love, to be as one, to do anything for each other, to be in love, and sex is part of that, but thats not really waht its refering to, notice how, as was pointed out previously when actual sex takes place they refer to tehm as knowing each other, not becoming one flesh.

Also as far as polygamy in the Bible goes, an important thing to realize is that not everything in the bible is desired by God.

Case in point is teh very fact that in the OT Moses wrote the law of divorce, and a man could divorce his wife for anything, burning his food if he wanted, when Jesus came people had progressed some or something, and Jesus made it known that divorce was allowed because of hard hearts, but that it is not the true way or teh way of God.

I believe the same thing is being said when Jesus says we will not marry or be given in marriage in Heaven, He is not saying that the in love relationship will not exist, He is saying that our laws and marriages as we know it will not exist, we will not need a ceremony and a written law to have to people be united in the in love one flesh relationship.

So in love does exist in Heaven.

Also i do think it is perfectly clear in the Bible that sex should only be had with the one person you are one with, adn taht you can and should only be one with one person, and that it is forever.

I believe that just as God created Adam and Eve perfectly for each other, that He does the same for all of us, that true love and soulmates, complements prepared by God, do exist, the problem is that this world does have sin, so with death and fear and other things we cannot always find or be with our true love, so God tolerates some things, focusing on us getting our relationship right with Him, once our relationship is right with Him, in Heaven we will then be able to right our relationships with others, and partake of the true one man one woman one flesh relationship.

bizzt wrote:

Shirtless wrote:(NIV) New International Version (my personal favorite)

That Scripture however being quoted is wrong and taken out of Context... As you see from my above Scriptures none use the word "but". I am not aware of any Apostles or Church Fathers being polygamists? Do you have more information then just that particular Passage.
However I did find this Interesting site concerning the Old Testament Saints.
http://www.christianpolygamy.info/history/

No no, forget the "but" part, that's not what I meant. I meant that Paul is suggesting that Church Elders have one wife. This means that Christians have many wives at the time. Why is Paul suggesting this? For the same reason that he suggests men be celibate: because if you're celibate without a family, all decisions you make affect only you.

For example, if the mob threatens to kill you if testify against their boss, and you don't have a family, the only Christian thing to say is "[love you]!" But if you do have a family to take care of, what are you supposed to do? This is why he suggests one wife. I find it to be good advise, but in the end, it's only advise, and it's advise directed only to Church Elders.

You asked if I have any more info other than that passage. People have been telling me to drop this subject and I will if they truly want me to. But since you asked there was a book written by Father Eugene Hillman called "Polygamy Reconsidered". In the book he stresses that polygamy was accepted up until the early third century. He says that the change came only because of the Greco-Roman culture the Church was living under--but even still, prostitution and concubines were still allowed.

He cites Saint Augustine of Hippo: "Now indeed in our time, and in keeping with Roman custom, it is no longer allowed to take another wife".

Keep in mind that I don't mind talking about this but others have told me to drop it and I will if they want.

JBirdAngel, when I compare the views against polygamy, I see 10x more passages that speak against divorce directly...with polygamy it's extremely vague. So I understand what you mean, but I think that there is a big difference between the two.

Consider it dropped...

How can you justify the fact that the Torah sanctions slavery?
So, while nowadays, slavery would be cruel, perhaps in ancient times, in a society built very differently with very different social, economic and logistical institutions the reverse would be the truth. In other words (and this is how I explain polygamy as well as slavery) for some individuals, at some points in history, it would have been the harshest cruelty to forbid slavery (or polygamy), i.e. they would have remained economically deprived, low in social status, single, with absolutely no support in the community, etc. - that is the way the entire world was then.

Above is written by a scholar on the Torah.

Sex outside of marriage is frowned upon. The OT states that if a man rapes a woman, he is to pay a fine and marry her.
Basically sex was meant for marriage, thats made very clear.

Kurieuo wrote:Additionally, I'm yet to see a case in Scripture where God endorses polygamy as good.
Kurieuo.

I think there are a couple of scriptures where God says he has
no problem with Poligamy. They don't quite say God says its GOOD.

When Nathan confronted David with his adultry he made this statement
in the middle of it. Paraphrased. God has given you lands and the wives of Saul. If these weren't enough for you, you could have
asked and God would have given you more. - Its interesting that I've
heard David sin preached against a million times, but every preacher
has skipped over this part of Nathan's advice. Ok, only 2,371 times.

Another scripture that has God saying possitive things is when Moses
takes His second wife, the Cushite woman. Merrium(sp) gets upset with
Moses over the woman and asks can't God speak thru us also? God
makes her arm leperous and says I have spoken face to face with Moses.
This is the context of the famous verse where God says, Moses is faithful in all his house.

As these messages say, the verse that the husband and wife are
to cling to each other is the best scripture against poligamy. But here
is the author of that scripture not livin by our interpertation of that
verse and GOD saying that Moses is faithful in all his house when he takes
a second wife. (Internal evidance)

I'll look forward to any replys
day

I wish I could give a full reply, seeing as this is my thread...but I told the others I would drop the subject. I will say good job for seeing stuff that I missed. I always have pro-polygamy, pro-sex-out-of-wed-lock arguments, but I always figured that the burden of proof belongs to the accusers.

I've been biting my tongue about the statement about slavery above, but there's something about slavery in the Bible that is misunderstood: the Jews treated their slaves very well. Americans had what's called "New World Slavery" where slaves were treated brutally; so early church leaders didn't outright condemn slavery because the line was so blurred at the time. BUT...I believe in universal morality, and if something was bad then, it's bad now. Jesus told us only what we needed to hear: love your neighbor/enemy. He doesn't talk about skin color like Muhammad did, and he doesn't go on and on about religious tolerance either, because once you cover one form of bigotry, there's hundreds more to go through. Jesus kept it short, simple, and unchangeable. Christianity has always been anti-slavery, we just didn't want to admit it.

dayhiker wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:Additionally, I'm yet to see a case in Scripture where God endorses polygamy as good.

I think there are a couple of scriptures where God says he has
no problem with Poligamy. They don't quite say God says its GOOD.

When Nathan confronted David with his adultry he made this statement
in the middle of it. Paraphrased. God has given you lands and the wives of Saul. If these weren't enough for you, you could have asked and God would have given you more.

Ahem. Did you read my following sentences after that, or did you just skim my post? I think I produce a better case than the one you present above (which I also briefly mention) where God allowed polygamy . Straight after the sentence of mine you quote above I write:

Kurieuo wrote:It seems I can find many cases where God endorses monogamy, but the most I can find of polygamy are examples due to certain circumstances whether it be bareness of the first wife (Abraham), peace and advantage offered by political alliances (Solomon), or a taking over of kingship where all possessions, including wives, being inherited by the new king. At the same token, we see many issues that arose because of such polygamous relationships. With Abraham jealousy occurred (something which from my understanding is also common in tribes where polygamy is common—the older wives feel beyond their used by date and become jealous of the younger ones), one becomes lead astray from God, as Solomon did, by the many diverging beliefs of their wives, and can simply not devote themselves to God as much, or one can even begin to envy the love that can exist within a monogamous relationship as David did, and so wish to covet such. In no place can I find polygamy in the Bible in good light, or as something with God's backing.

But you know what? These examples don't matter because they do not show that God endorsed, approved, or supported polygamy. While polygamy is allowed, and God works with it, it is never given God's backing. Just like God giving David Saul's wives does not mean God endorses women as simply the possessions of men, nor does such an example mean God endorses polygamy. It simply means God worked with it at that time with certain people. And from my understanding of Israel's history, it certainly wasn't the norm for everyone back then.

Yet, with monogamy, I can find much Scripture where such relationships are endorsed.

Shirtless wrote:I wish I could give a full reply, seeing as this is my thread...but I told the others I would drop the subject. I will say good job for seeing stuff that I missed.

Perhaps you were just more observant at the time you read my post, and saw I dealt with the passage presented in advance?

Kurieuo.

Kurieuo, not only did I read it, and understand the point you were making, I also used to personally believe what you're saying(!). But I've changed my views, because the Bible can be so open to interpretation, that you have no choice but to look at the Bible like a lawyer gathering info in order to make a case. If you were the prosecuter in a trial, would a jury buy this? Innocent until proven guilty not only deals with people, but ideas as well.

the older wives feel beyond their used by date and become jealous of the younger ones

To think, all this time I thought it was impossible to split a hair. Older women becoming jealous of younger ones? I've never heard of such a thing before (I'm just messin' with ya, be cool ). No system is perfect anyway, I could come up with lots of problems with monogamy too (though I have nothing against it anyway).

You forget that Abraham was told that he will create a great nation from Sarah, not Keturah. Solomon's 700 wives a political need you say? And what defense do you have for Moses' second wife again? Saying that these men sinned out of neccesity is at most a stretch, and at least...well, let's just say you probably won't get a hung jury.

"Test Everything, Hold on to the Good."
1 Thessalonians 5:21