Evidence for God from Science

You are close to my way of thinking, but let me offer a fairly simple point for your consideration: the distinction between determining and discovering.

Let's return to our firefighter analogy. In the first case, the fire was accidental, and in the second, it was intentional. Now, when the fireman is trying to find out which of these cases is reality, and he finds the match, newspaper, curtain, and kerosene, and when he announces the fire to be intentional, we may say, "Ah, he has correctly determined the case of the flame."

Technically, that is wrong. Did the fireman determine or did he discover the cause of the flame? Clearly, the latter is accurate. Who, then, determined it? Clearly, the arsonist did. It was the arsonist who determined how the fire would start; the fireman discovered what the arsonist determined. Let's, then, bring that idea to our discussion.

You argue that ""Before" Creation (perhaps "at the instant of" would be a better term) God decided everything about Creation." Now, when you use the word "decided," you seem to be using it in the sense of "determined" above. But is it right that God determined everything about creation? That is, did God determine our choice? No, for as you yourself said, "at the moment of Creation he knew every "choice" we would make and then decided to make it this way thus fixing us to our "choices"."

Let's go back to the fundamental distinction I've been making throughout this discussion, which is the difference in the the nature of an action versus the knowledge of the nature of an action. The nature of my action is that it is freely determined (by me, relative to the logical choices I have to pick from). I, not God, determine what I will do. However, my actions are not self-existent. Their existence is dependent on me, on the reality with which I am presented, etc. And both me and reality are likewise dependent for their existence on God. Thus, there is absolutely nothing that exists on its own, but rather, God gives existence to everything, because He IS existence (we can unpack that more if you like). That is to say, God grants existence to everything, including my choices.

But that means that God did not determine my choices. What He did do was determine to make my choices a reality, but they are my choices still. You can say that God "sealed" me in my choices, but that does not change the fact that they are my choices. And further, by "sealing" me in my choices, all we are saying is that God gave existence to them. And can there be any other alternative? If God gives existence to ANYTHING, then He seals it in a state of existence. Why should that be any different in the case of my choice?

To return, then, to my basic conclusion: does the fact that God grants existence to my choices, and the fact that He fully knows what my choice is in granting that existence, have any bearing on the fact that, on the level of its nature, my choice is a self-determined choice? No, it does not. Thus we still see that even in Creation, man has (relatively) free will even as God is completely sovereign.

And you don't have to be a Calvinist do believe any of that . . .

Jac3510 wrote:Thus we still see that even in Creation, man has (relatively) free will even as God is completely sovereign.

I've enjoyed this discussion and learned a lot. Thanks, Jac3510.

FL

So have I, but it would require Divine intervention for me to relate it as clearly as did Jac.

In my studies I have thought about this for some time now and I could never get the words to come out coherently.

Thanks Jac3510.

Thanks for the encouraging comments. In the last year, I've found myself particularly obsessed with linguistics and philosophy, so it's great to hear that the ideas I have in my head are making sense to others.

Jac3510 wrote:Thanks for the encouraging comments. In the last year, I've found myself particularly obsessed with linguistics and philosophy, so it's great to hear that the ideas I have in my head are making sense to others.

You're welcome.

I would love to have the time to devote more to studies but it doesn't seem it's going to happen anyways soon.
Every time I think I have, or try to make time, something comes up or somebody needs help. This in it's self isn't all that bad though, I do like being of good use to anyone whenever possible.

I sometimes think that is the way God uses me to reach others and perhaps He uses people like you to fill in the blanks for people like me.

You make good sense, keep on posting!

Jac3510 wrote:...As...noted, there is no "before" Creation, so, even with your caveat, it is difficult to make sense of the statement, "God knew what we would choose." Still, I believe the above discussion does address that question. What we do have to recognize is that human beings do not have absolute free will. No one that I know would assert that. We have relative free will, meaning we are free to choose between any logically possible alternatives presented to us.

Thus, while on the obvious level I can't fly without the help of a plane, I can't refuse to fall if I'm unsuspended in the air, I can't choose to survive being decapitated, and I can't choose to walk through a brick wall, it is also true that I can't choose to go right when the street turns only left; I can't choose to take the test when it is not yet offered, nor can I choose to study for it if I haven't been told one will be given. But when I am told there will be a test next Friday, I THEN have the choice to study or not to study at any time I choose.

We then see that freedom of choice is granted only when we encounter reality, and never before. Thus, when God created the universe, He created reality. He created this way rather than that, but had He created it that way rather than this, it still would have been reality. In creating reality, He gave us these situations to which we may freely react. He did not give us those situations to which we could react. But does the fact that we have these, rather than those, situations to react to negate the fact that we have the choice to react to these situations in any way we see fit? No. And does the fact that God knows what we will freely choose in those cases negate the fact that the nature of our choice-events is that of being freely chosen (if only relatively)? Again, of course not. Thus, even from the standpoint of creation, people have free will.

Excellent posts Jac!

For a scriptural reference look at Genesis 1:26-28 and you'll see this concept that Jac is conveying:

“Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

You can sum it up like this: God granted humanity freedom and with this freedom came the ability even to misuse this freedom or not to misuse it. This freedom lets us create on a limited scale to rule our limited domain in various ways.

We can build an airplane that flies or a dam to generate electricity. We can use the gift of dominion that God gave humanity in realistic ways. We cannot physically walk through a wall but we can use explosive to create a hole to walk through or a pick axe to make passage possible. We can even jostle for dominance at work or at home in a variety of ways to numerous to go through now in detail.

This is the freedom God gave humanity: The freedom to exercise dominion, authority, subjugation, etc. If you look at Ezekiel 34:4 and Leviticus 25: 43, 46, 53 you'll discover that one can misuse this freedom. This means there is a correct way and a wrong way. Humanity has chosen to walk the path to rule (have dominion) with rigor, harshness, and even cruelty through the fall. (Romans 5:12)

Is God at fault for this? No. The sin of misusing is the creatures own. In fact, God works through it all in many diverse ways to restore things to his perfect state that he originally intended (Revelations 21:1-4). God granted humanity the freedom (of intelligence) and with this freedom comes the freedom to even misuse this freedom.

What is truly amazing is how God proves himself God by working through all things wisely, perfectly, justly, righteously, with faultless equity (Psalms 67:4, Psalms 96:10) to restore things to his perfect state he originally intended (Note Revelations 21:1-4).

I can find no fault in God for granting humanity this gift, nor can I blame him for granting us freedom, all I can do is stand in awe of the greatness of God and marvel at his all-surpassing wisdom, which causes me to fall to my knees in adoration of the greatness of God!
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top5pin wrote:Hello, this is my first post on this forum and the reason that I have joined. I have read through some of the forum but I haven't found this topic covered yet, if it has I apologise for bringing it up again. I'd like to present a philosophical problem and my point of view on it so that I can better understand how you would consider this problem through the window of your faith.

Premise 1: God is benevolent
Premise 2: God is omnipotent
Premise 3: God is omniscient
Premise 4: Evil exists

Conclusion (Part 1):
From P3 and P4 we can deduce that God knows that evil exists. From P1 and P2 we can deduce that God has the power and the desire to end evil. So God has the knowledge, power and motivation to end evil and yet evil exists.

I have asked this question of many Christians before and their answers, plus what I have gleaned from studying the bible boils down to this. God gave us the free will and it is the aberrent use of this free will that leads to evil. From that we can conclude that any sweeping action by God to completely end evil would necessarily require the loss of our free will.

At this point we must include a new premise.

Premise 5: We have free will

Conclusion (Part 2):
Unfortunately this creates a fundamental inconsistency, P3 and P5 cannot both be correct. Omniscience is the attribute of total knowledge, an omniscient being has the knowledge of everything that ever was and everything that ever will be. If your future is already known then you are denied the ability to choose your own path, and are left with just the illusion of free will. Let me use an example:

As you set off for work in the morning you have a choice to make, you can either,

a) Take the North route to work
b) Take the South route to work

Being omniscient God knows, before you even choose that you will take the North route today. If God doesn't know what route you will take then he is not omniscient. If you choose to take the South route then God would be wrong and therefore not omniscient. Reductio ad absurdum - in order to maintain God's omniscience you are left with one option and one option is no choice at all.

Final Thoughts:
Personally I think that free will in fact does not exist. I consider that every action we take is predetermined by a combination of our genetic make up and previous experiences that we have had in our lives. Whilst this solves the problem of God's omniscience it still leaves me with the problem of evil. If we don't have free will then why does God allow evil to exist in the world?

Thank you for reading.

I like to think that I am only one in millions that have pondered the questions you ask as well, I might take it a little farther than you have and ask Why did He choose to take a handful of dirt and create a man in the first place, if as most believe He is all knowing and knows the beginning from the end, He therefore had to know that Adam and all his future decendents would currupt the perfect planet He created, He did decide, so I'm told to wipe out all but 8 of the human creatures He did create but being all knowing ,here again He could forsee the evil those 8 would be responsible for in the years to come as I would assume that if it were possible to trace our DNA back to Adam science would find a match in certain of our genes as I believe the bible claims we were all born in the sin of Adam.It has always been a mystery to me, It's not as though He needed the human race to worship Him, He has a few hundred or more Angels doing that all day long. And than He creates an Angel that He knows is going to turn on Him and be given this planet that he (Satan) offered to Jesus if Jesus would worship him, something he could'nt have done if it wasn't his. Maybe someone can explain it to both of us...Ray

imoneru? wrote:I like to think that I am only one in millions that have pondered the questions you ask as well, I might take it a little farther than you have and ask Why did He choose to take a handful of dirt and create a man in the first place, if as most believe He is all knowing and knows the beginning from the end, He therefore had to know that Adam and all his future decendents would currupt the perfect planet He created, He did decide, so I'm told to wipe out all but 8 of the human creatures He did create but being all knowing ,here again He could forsee the evil those 8 would be responsible for in the years to come as I would assume that if it were possible to trace our DNA back to Adam science would find a match in certain of our genes as I believe the bible claims we were all born in the sin of Adam.It has always been a mystery to me, It's not as though He needed the human race to worship Him, He has a few hundred or more Angels doing that all day long. And than He creates an Angel that He knows is going to turn on Him and be given this planet that he (Satan) offered to Jesus if Jesus would worship him, something he could'nt have done if it wasn't his. Maybe someone can explain it to both of us...Ray

God had and has a plan...

We are living in it now

(Note -- Genesis 1:1, 2, 3 : Revelation 21:1)
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This is my first post.

"Personally I think that free will in fact does not exist. I consider that every action we take is predetermined by a combination of our genetic make up and previous experiences that we have had in our lives. Whilst this solves the problem of God's omniscience it still leaves me with the problem of evil. If we don't have free will then why does God allow evil to exist in the world? "

There is a concept known as the "keyhole" principle. It follows that since we do not know everything, we only know from what we see/learn. It refers to looking into a room through the doors "keyhole" and thus the name. Since the room cannot be fully viewed, and we do not have a key to open the door, the only avenue for understanding is through the key hole, our understanding of the room is from the angles we see to observe. Again it is limmited in many ways. Firstly what we can see and if we bother too move too try and view from differant angles what else we can see. Then the interpretation of what we have seen and the relation to what we have seen to what it means to us and how it affects us.

Everyone is within this paramiter so know one is better or worse than anyone else, it all comes down to perspective.

Do we have free will or is it predetermined. I believe it is both but i do not see a restriction in this. For example , if one believes in Christ ( and all that this means ) you will go to heaven, if not then you go to hell. So is this predetermined? In effect it is but the predetermination is not the choice but the result of the choice.It is know differant to Adam and the fruit, Judas and the coins, Christ and the cross. Each act was a choice but the results gave the predetermination.

IF God is just and righteous, then how can it be that all we do is predetermined. If you look mathematically at a given situation and the choices one can make, then each result is a predetermined factor. It is not predetermined by the human element of our limmitation (keyhole) for we do not know the ramifications fully of the choice, but we can possable calculate what the result maybe. So does God know all that will happen, yes because he is the creator of the room, but he is not the room himself. So he has all the mathematical results and dependant on what choice we make, will dictate what results will follow.

This is not a contradiction.

Regarding the gentic makeup, this is a physical limmitation constituted by either your believe that God created us in a short time or over a longer period of time. The influence of the genetic code is brought about by interrelation of genetics through parents and not by God limmiting this code to us specifically. I do not understand how "previous experiences " constitutes predetermination? Previous experiance only reflects on our ability to understand/percieve/react to situations but these reactions can either be - instinctive or determined by you dependant on each case.Lack of knowledge or wisdom does not constitute predetermination.

In regards to Evil. We need to be clear on this, evil is not caused by any species other than man and woman = humans. Many ask why does God let this happen and why does God let that happen. Why do we come into this? what is our responsabilites to such situations. Can someone explain to me why God has apparently to do everything and is the cause of everthing?

Gods' acts are due to human actions. God did not decide to bring evil into the world, nor did he decide to destroy it by water, this is the cause of man. No differant than when he had to cast man out of Eden, who caused this? was it God creating Eden for man to enjoy and to walk with him in the evening or was it mans foolishness to listen to another and not be with God in all things. The fact that God put the tree(s) in the garden did not constitute failure or predestination. The command he gave was clear, the choice to do so was mans.

The reality is that God does not allow evil to exisist in the world, man does. The predestination is this. If man follows Gods commands then evil will not exisist, because the Devil will have nothing to influence, but if man does not follow his ways then the Devil has a voice of influence - Follow God or Follow satan - the choice is for everyone to decide.

If we don't have free will then why does God allow evil to exist in the world? "

If we don't have free will then either evil doesn't exist, or God created evil. I think this exposes the fallacy in your thinking. You do have free will, or how would you be able to make an assertion that you don't have free will?

If there is no free will, then man is not responsible for evil, we are not sinners, and God sent His son to die for no reason.

A lot of long-winded explanations that are absolutely correct but to answer simply; It does not happen because God knows it is going to happen, but that God knows it is going to happen because it is going to happen.

haha, gotta love simplicity, jkarr. We obviously have to be prepared to defend and unpack such a statement, which is what a lot of those long-winded answers were, but it is nice to have a single, well packaged statement to fall back on, especially one as easily remembered as that. Good show, and welcome to the boards.

Question:

How can God really be just if he denies autonomy of thought and action?
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Depends on how strongly you mean "autonomy," I think. None of us are completely autonomous, not even in our thoughts. Further, there are clear instances where God hardens people's hearts in Scripture (and likewise opens their minds!), but I take those to be in response to what a person has already done. But clearly it would be unjust of Him to turn us unto a robot with no will of our own--in fact, if He did that, we would cease to be persons at all!

Jac3510 wrote:Depends on how strongly you mean "autonomy," I think. None of us are completely autonomous, not even in our thoughts. Further, there are clear instances where God hardens people's hearts in Scripture (and likewise opens their minds!), but I take those to be in response to what a person has already done. But clearly it would be unjust of Him to turn us unto a robot with no will of our own--in fact, if He did that, we would cease to be persons at all!

Pretty much the same manner you just described...
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