Evidence for God from Science

cslewislover wrote:

3.14 wrote:there cannot be free will if one created the concept of free will.

my point is if he knows the answers to all that he wills, what does he prove and why does he need to prove these things?

I don't see why your first statement quoted here is true. To me that doesn't make sense. Just because something is created, doesn't mean it can't work (in fact, it's normally the opposite).

Why are you stuck on God needing to prove something? Like FFC said, Why is this an issue? Why are you trying to second guess God? God created us to love, both ourselves and Him. If the universe was only set up to establish proofs, what a cold place it would be.

And besides that who said that God created free will? I'm not sure that it was something that had to be created.

FFC wrote:

cslewislover wrote:

3.14 wrote:there cannot be free will if one created the concept of free will.

my point is if he knows the answers to all that he wills, what does he prove and why does he need to prove these things?

I don't see why your first statement quoted here is true. To me that doesn't make sense. Just because something is created, doesn't mean it can't work (in fact, it's normally the opposite).

Why are you stuck on God needing to prove something? Like FFC said, Why is this an issue? Why are you trying to second guess God? God created us to love, both ourselves and Him. If the universe was only set up to establish proofs, what a cold place it would be.

And besides that who said that God created free will? I'm not sure that it was something that had to be created.

Gen 1:28: "And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

How can you exercise dominion and subdue without the ability to think and reason independently?

Gen 2:19, "Now out of the ground the LORD God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name."

Why did God bring the animals to be named by man and then honor whatever Adam named them if free thought, independent thinking, or free will, cannot exist?
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B. W. wrote:

FFC wrote:

cslewislover wrote:

3.14 wrote:there cannot be free will if one created the concept of free will.

my point is if he knows the answers to all that he wills, what does he prove and why does he need to prove these things?

I don't see why your first statement quoted here is true. To me that doesn't make sense. Just because something is created, doesn't mean it can't work (in fact, it's normally the opposite).

Why are you stuck on God needing to prove something? Like FFC said, Why is this an issue? Why are you trying to second guess God? God created us to love, both ourselves and Him. If the universe was only set up to establish proofs, what a cold place it would be.

And besides that who said that God created free will? I'm not sure that it was something that had to be created.

Gen 1:28: "And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

How can you exercise dominion and subdue without the ability to think and reason independently?

Gen 2:19, "Now out of the ground the LORD God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name."

Why did God bring the animals to be named by man and then honor whatever Adam named them if free thought, independent thinking, or free will, cannot exist?
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I agree. I was just wondering if Free will was just a natural by product of the creation of a person with emotion, intellect, and will... and not something that had to be specifically "created". Just thinking out loud.

FFC wrote:

Metacrock wrote:

3.14 wrote:"I am who am" except who is asking him? if no one asked "who am" or who are you? how could he exist?

but we do exist and we are asking. you are cease existing to make God go away?

If a tree falls in the forrest and noone is there to hear it does it make a sound?

I don't understand this whole thread. I never thought God had to prove anything to anyone to confirm his existence. Where does that thought process come from?

that's my point.

Metacrock wrote:

FFC wrote:

Metacrock wrote:

3.14 wrote:"I am who am" except who is asking him? if no one asked "who am" or who are you? how could he exist?

but we do exist and we are asking. you are cease existing to make God go away?

If a tree falls in the forrest and noone is there to hear it does it make a sound?

I don't understand this whole thread. I never thought God had to prove anything to anyone to confirm his existence. Where does that thought process come from?

that's my point.

FFC wrote:If a tree falls in the forrest and noone is there to hear it does it make a sound?

Yes, it does make a sound, independently of anything that may hear it when it falls. Sound is a physical event.

I don't understand this whole thread. I never thought God had to prove anything to anyone to confirm his existence. Where does that thought process come from?

I'm not sure either...and Ihave read this thread at least three times-unless this can make any sense of it all:
GOD doesn't NEED to reveal HIMSELF to anyone or anything, HE does though, because HE wants to.
GOD can act independently of anything else and from what we can gather, He did so when HE created the universe and all of us. Before HIS creation, according to science, there was no time or space yet HE existed, presumably without an audience.

I'm wondering if that thought process comes from one having too much time on one's hands.

New here - but let me jump into the fray.

1st - I believe. I can prove God exists and I believe in Him.

I want to know - Why?

God needs to (arrogant I know) answer this question for me.

If the Bible is true (as I believe it is) then these things are true.

1. God create all things - evil included.
2. God created Satan and it was no surprise to God that Satan would rebel - he was created for that purpose.
3. God created man (Adam and Eve) and it was no surprise to Him that they sinned.

Whereas God knew 'before the creation of the world' what would occur and given that most humans experience far more suffering than joy in their lives, then why did he bother. Some will answer so we could choose him - bologna. He knew beforehand who would and who wouldn't. Some say to glorify him. Again, bologna. He was self-sufficient before he created the universe and has been ever since. So - why - why create beings who suffer despite their love for You. Why create beings who - if saved - would be better off dead?

I await any thoughtful opinions.

Doug.

Doug wrote:New here - but let me jump into the fray.

1st - I believe. I can prove God exists and I believe in Him.

I want to know - Why?

God needs to (arrogant I know) answer this question for me.

If the Bible is true (as I believe it is) then these things are true.

1. God create all things - evil included.
2. God created Satan and it was no surprise to God that Satan would rebel - he was created for that purpose.
3. God created man (Adam and Eve) and it was no surprise to Him that they sinned.

Whereas God knew 'before the creation of the world' what would occur and given that most humans experience far more suffering than joy in their lives, then why did he bother. Some will answer so we could choose him - bologna. He knew beforehand who would and who wouldn't. Some say to glorify him. Again, bologna. He was self-sufficient before he created the universe and has been ever since. So - why - why create beings who suffer despite their love for You. Why create beings who - if saved - would be better off dead?

I await any thoughtful opinions.

Doug.

I think this is interesting, and welcome to the board, Doug. I would like to look up some of this and get back to it; I do have some resources I can follow up on. For now, though, I could say that I often feel this life is like a pergatory. I don't believe there is anything to support this in the bible, although Julian of Norwich mentions it (in her Revelations of Love, which are 16 detailed visions from God - now I'll get in trouble with some people on the board too, I'm sure). I think it's going to remain a mystery, for the most part, but I'll look into it.

I'm back. I'm going to reproduce some of CS Lewis' thought here on this subject, but it doesn't cover everything you asked about. Just something to think about (from Mere Theology: A Guide to the Thought of C.S. Lewis, by Will Vaus 2004, pp 63-64).

A fourth point that Lewis makes is that God was not under any necessity to create. In The Four Loves, Lewis states that there is no hunger that needs to be filled in God; there is only plenteousness that desires to give. The doctrine that God was under no necessity to create is essential. Without it, Lewis maintains, we can hardly avoid the conception of what he calls a "managerial" God, a being whose function is simply to "run" the universe. Why would God need to create when in himself, in the Trinity, he is already Sovereign of a far greater realm? Lewis asserts that we must keep before our eyes the vision of Lady Julian of Norwich wherein God carried in his hand a little object like a nut, and that nut was "all that is made." The God who needs nothing loves us into existence only so that he may love and perfect us.

In other words, we are created for God's pleasure. Lewis elaborates on this in The Problem of Pain. He writes that human beings are not the center of Creation. God doesn't exist for the sake of humanity. Human beings do not even exist for their own sake. Lewis quotes Revelation 4:11: "Thou has created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." We were made so as to become objects in which the Divine love might rest well pleased.

However, Lewis also notes a second reason for creation. People were created to enjoy God and all his creation. Lewis writes that if it were not for our body one whole realm of God's glory--all that we receive through the senses--would go without praise. Mere animals cannot appreciate creation, and angels are pure minds who understand colors and tastes better than the greatest scientists. But do the angels receive God's creation through senses as we do? Lewis thinks not. He fancies that the beauties of nature are a secret God has shared with human beings alone. That is one of the reasons why we were made--and why the resurrection of the body is so important. Lewis echoes the first question and answer of the Westminster Shorter Catechism: "What is the chief end of man? Man's chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever." For Lewis, the enjoyment of God is one of the main reasons for human existence.

The last paragraph is pretty encouraging, although it says that man's chief end is to glorify God, something you disagree with. Maybe with more study and more opinions on the overall subject, you'll come to disagree with that less.

Doug wrote:
1. God create all things - evil included.

He created all things but not evil...

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evil.html

Doug wrote:2. God created Satan and it was no surprise to God that Satan would rebel - he was created for that purpose.
3. God created man (Adam and Eve) and it was no surprise to Him that they sinned.

??? God does not make robots.... Please read the following.

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/p ... ation.html

Gman wrote:

Doug wrote:
1. God create all things - evil included.

He created all things but not evil...

If not God - then who?

[/quote]The last paragraph is pretty encouraging, although it says that man's chief end is to glorify God, something you disagree with. Maybe with more study and more opinions on the overall subject, you'll come to disagree with that less.[/quote]

It is not so much that I disagree as that I fail to see the purpose of pain and suffering. God created all - all sin, all evil, all pain, all suffering. Granted He knows all and knows His purposes better than I. And I will look foolish when I stand before Him with his purpose revealed but the central question is still why. What is the purpose of living if once you are saved you are far better off dead?

dk

Doug wrote:

The last paragraph is pretty encouraging, although it says that man's chief end is to glorify God, something you disagree with. Maybe with more study and more opinions on the overall subject, you'll come to disagree with that less.[/quote]

It is not so much that I disagree as that I fail to see the purpose of pain and suffering. God created all - all sin, all evil, all pain, all suffering. Granted He knows all and knows His purposes better than I. And I will look foolish when I stand before Him with his purpose revealed but the central question is still why. What is the purpose of living if once you are saved you are far better off dead?

dk[/quote]

Have you ever read Lewis' The Proglem of Pain? I've never actually read that one all the way through myself. Maybe I will now so I can talk about it more here. I'd still like to look up some more things on this, but I've read enough in the past to know that we don't know all about it. When you read stories of present day martyrs, a lot of them are pretty horrifying. I mean some of the ways these people die is just unbelievable (much in North Korea). It makes God look like a sadist. I know Lewis gets into this. But a lot of times these people are also filled with God's spirit at the time and they are a tremendous witness to those around them. So, even though they died (and yes, are in a better place!), their witness led others to Christ. I'm sure you know some of this and I don't mean to be talking down to you.

The last thing you said, "What is the purpose of living if once you are saved you are far better off dead?" I'm sure a lot of people wouldn't agree with that question. I do believe life will be better after death, but I think a lot of people, and even a lot of Christians, aren't sure of that. Why do you ask it? And you said that you will look foolish before God with this question, but I think you won't even have the chance to ask the question. I think all will be shown and you'll understand then.

One thing to think about with evil and suffering is the choices we make about it, and how these choices both help us to improve (or not) and help (or not) those around us. It's part of our training, so to speak. We ourselves should do something about evil, even though it won't completely go away until God acts. Hitler had free will to do what he did, as did those around him. Imagine if those around him didn't go along with him, even if it meant their deaths? Hitler and his followers show us how easy it is to go along with evil because we're fearful and, for a lot of people, hateful. It shows us our own condition, and that we need God, and finally, when we see that need and He fulfills it, we just naturally want to glorify God. Maybe for a lot of people, if there were no evil and suffering in the world, they would never seek God! Ah, I just remembered that that's one of the major arguments for evil and suffering. See, if I just rambled enough, I knew it would come to me (lol).

I didn't look at the links GMAN posted yet, but yes, God created all things so I want to go see how Rich dealt with this. Edit: OK, just that evil is an act of free will, not a created "thing." Well, OK. God knew evil would exist, and He allows its use for certain purposes. I think we all know that. It gets to the point where we can't know the mind of God during his act of creation, I guess.

Doug wrote:1. God create all things - evil included.

Gman wrote:He created all things but not evil...

Doug wrote:If not God - then who?

Hi Doug,

You ask a good question,

To answer you will need to think and not presuppose...are you up to that?

First, who does evil?

Does not history prove man's inhumanity toward man?

How can that be God's doing when it is we who commit the crimes?

Next question:

How can God be so unfair in allowing babies to be born with deformities, disabilities, etc…?

Again, has not modern science proven that certain diet, chemicals, alcohol, drugs, can alter human DNA so that someone in future generation may have such occur?

Who is to blame? God? Or some ancestor who's act or exposure caused this to happen? Sometimes, people are exposed to harmful things without ever knowing it. Therefore sin may not be the cause of a disability or disfigurement. Or again, someone's practice of substance abuse, their sin, can indeed affect untold future generations.

Knowing this, how DNA can be altered, should we ban alcohol and certain drugs to protect our future generations? Or does the right of a person desiring to indulge in abuse supersede personal choice and rights of a future generation?

Again, who does evil?

People complain how unfair God is for not stopping these things or allowing them but again who does evil? People would call God a tyrant, outdated, narrow minded if he attempted to use force to compel compliance upon people to be good.

What should God do? Use force? Or plead and woo, take time to tell people what wrong is, per generation after generation, and offer choice to people and the means to return to their senses by use of reason?

What shows equity? What proves justice? What proves love? Force or engaging reason?

What is the correct way — the perfect way to change a person's mind? Forced compliance or engaging reason so one can make their own choice?

People love to indict God of sin, for all permitting all wrong doing, for all illness, disabilities, and being weak and unable to stop it. Again, who does evil?

Force compliance or engaging reason? Are you not forcing God to act according to your dictates and if he did, you and I would be the first to complain of God's straight jacket life?

Again who creates evil? Not God --

Deu 32:3-4, “ God! "The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he." ESV

How could God be perfectly just if he denies reason? How could being all powerful be proven truly all powerful if it denies intelligence to exercise reason? All powerful denotes an ability to be able to work through all things to reach a goal...

Job 34:10-12, "Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding: far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong. 11 For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him. 12 Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice” ESV

Again, who creates evil and has the audacity of accusing God to his face of creating the very evil they make?

This leads to the next question:

Why does not God do anything to stop evil in this world because if we were God - we would make everything perfect and avoid evil altogether from day one of creation?

Why - that question is easy to answer but you'll have to wait until I have a bit more time to spend to answer it. I need to leave and take care of a few things now...
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Cross.eyed wrote:

FFC wrote:If a tree falls in the forrest and noone is there to hear it does it make a sound?

Yes, it does make a sound, independently of anything that may hear it when it falls. Sound is a physical event.

I don't understand this whole thread. I never thought God had to prove anything to anyone to confirm his existence. Where does that thought process come from?

I'm not sure either...and Ihave read this thread at least three times-unless this can make any sense of it all:
GOD doesn't NEED to reveal HIMSELF to anyone or anything, HE does though, because HE wants to.
GOD can act independently of anything else and from what we can gather, He did so when HE created the universe and all of us. Before HIS creation, according to science, there was no time or space yet HE existed, presumably without an audience.

I'm wondering if that thought process comes from one having too much time on one's hands.

[/quote]Hi Doug,
You ask a good question,
To answer you will need to think and not presuppose...are you up to that? "condescending"
First, who does evil?
Does not history prove man's inhumanity toward man?
How can that be God's doing when it is we who commit the crimes?
Next question:
How can God be so unfair in allowing babies to be born with deformities, disabilities, etc…?
Again, has not modern science proven that certain diet, chemicals, alcohol, drugs, can alter human DNA so that someone in future generation may have such occur?
Who is to blame? God? Or some ancestor who's act or exposure caused this to happen? Sometimes, people are exposed to harmful things without ever knowing it. Therefore sin may not be the cause of a disability or disfigurement. Or again, someone's practice of substance abuse, their sin, can indeed affect untold future generations.
Knowing this, how DNA can be altered, should we ban alcohol and certain drugs to protect our future generations? Or does the right of a person desiring to indulge in abuse supersede personal choice and rights of a future generation?
Again, who does evil?
People complain how unfair God is for not stopping these things or allowing them but again who does evil? People would call God a tyrant, outdated, narrow minded if he attempted to use force to compel compliance upon people to be good.
What should God do? Use force? Or plead and woo, take time to tell people what wrong is, per generation after generation, and offer choice to people and the means to return to their senses by use of reason?
What shows equity? What proves justice? What proves love? Force or engaging reason?
What is the correct way — the perfect way to change a person's mind? Forced compliance or engaging reason so one can make their own choice?
People love to indict God of sin, for all permitting all wrong doing, for all illness, disabilities, and being weak and unable to stop it. Again, who does evil?
Force compliance or engaging reason? Are you not forcing God to act according to your dictates and if he did, you and I would be the first to complain of God's straight jacket life?
Again who creates evil? Not God --

Deu 32:3-4, “ God! "The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he." ESV

How could God be perfectly just if he denies reason? How could being all powerful be proven truly all powerful if it denies intelligence to exercise reason? All powerful denotes an ability to be able to work through all things to reach a goal...

Job 34:10-12, "Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding: far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong. 11 For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him. 12 Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice” ESV

Again, who creates evil and has the audacity of accusing God to his face of creating the very evil they make?
This leads to the next question:

Why does not God do anything to stop evil in this world because if we were God - we would make everything perfect and avoid evil altogether from day one of creation?

Why - that question is easy to answer but you'll have to wait until I have a bit more time to spend to answer it. I need to leave and take care of a few things now...-[/quote]

I THINK you misunderstood the basic assumption. That is not that God sins but that God CREATED sin. God also created the one who 'seeks whom he might devour'. So my fundamental questions was and still is - Why? God created the universe with the full and complete knowledge of everything that would happen, every decision that would be made and every sin that would be committed. So what is the purpose?

Try again if you wish.

Doug.