Evidence for God from Science

jlay wrote:what do you mean, pick a question?

I tire of games.

ageofknowledge wrote:

jlay wrote:what do you mean, pick a question?

I tire of games.

I don't see your questions either, ageofknowledge. The last thing you have posted contains three quotations from the Declaration of Independence; statements, not questions.

Since they were stating why they wanted to be independent, why does all of it have to be based on scripture?

cslewislover wrote:

ageofknowledge wrote:

jlay wrote:what do you mean, pick a question?

I tire of games.

I don't see your questions either, ageofknowledge. The last thing you have posted contains three quotations from the Declaration of Independence; statements, not questions.

Since they were stating why they wanted to be independent, why does all of it have to be based on scripture?

Because they made assertions representing them as fact and used God's name to cosign them. That puts them in the realm of needing to be qualified by scripture to see if, in fact, their assertions are scriptural.

It's not rocket science.

ageofknowledge wrote:

cslewislover wrote:

ageofknowledge wrote:

jlay wrote:what do you mean, pick a question?

I tire of games.

I don't see your questions either, ageofknowledge. The last thing you have posted contains three quotations from the Declaration of Independence; statements, not questions.

Since they were stating why they wanted to be independent, why does all of it have to be based on scripture?

Because they made assertions representing them as fact and used God's name to cosign them. That puts them in the realm of needing to be qualified by scripture to see if, in fact, their assertions are scriptural.

It's not rocket science.

Maybe they had a different point of view from yours during that time period regarding "qualification." Which isn't rocket science to consider, either. They weren't writing a scientific or theological report, but an official, governmental document; styles of presenting arguments and facts have changed as well.

* * *

Discussion Guidelines:

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... hp?f=1&t=4

"Maybe they had a different point of view from yours during that time period regarding "qualification." Which isn't rocket science to consider, either. They weren't writing a scientific or theological report, but an official, governmental document; styles of presenting arguments and facts have changed as well."

They made assertions they insisted were ordained by God and unchanging as God and the laws of nature are. These assertions are either accurate or inaccurate. Since God and the Laws of Nature have not changed in the past 213 years, we should be able to qualify them with God's Word which is also unchanging. If they had kept God and the Laws of Nature out of it, then we could simply say it was their opinion. However, they did not. Hence the desirability of qualifying their truth claims.

ageofknowledge wrote:"Maybe they had a different point of view from yours during that time period regarding "qualification." Which isn't rocket science to consider, either. They weren't writing a scientific or theological report, but an official, governmental document; styles of presenting arguments and facts have changed as well."

They made assertions they insisted were ordained by God and unchanging as God and the laws of nature are. These assertions are either accurate or inaccurate. Since God and the Laws of Nature have not changed in the past 213 years, we should be able to qualify them with God's Word which is also unchanging. If they had kept God and the Laws of Nature out of it, then we could simply say it was their opinion. However, they did not. Hence the desirability of qualifying their truth claims.

Even if you could argue that some of their assertions are not agreed upon by many Christians (there are, of course, variations in interpretation of scripture), what would you do with this information? They weren't establishing a theocracy with the Declaration of Independence. I think much of what jlay wrote earlier is good. I would need to look to see if there is an online resource for the scriptural basis for this document, which there probably is . . .

Here's part of a sermon (there are three parts, and you can get to all of them), that talks of this issue"
http://xeniacitizenjournal.wordpress.co ... -part-iii/

Age, it's not a game.

I don't understand what you are asking?

Here's one thing you can do with it: http://www.christianshelpingourworld.org

Imagine if Christians left there ivory towers and televisions and began to apply scripture to activities like these people then things would begin to turn around.

Keep in mind, more than half of the authors of our Constitution on America had Seminary Degrees. THey all went to church and directed choirs and preached and a lot of them reference God the Father and His Son in their writings. All of these things can be viewed in just about any public library.

Well, a major reason a number of groups moved from Europe into the colonies in America was to flee from religious persecution. Most of the colonies had a state religion, it being a denomination of Christianity. Rhode Island, I believe, was the only colony to have freedom of religion, and it was founded by a Christian. A great majority of the Founding Fathers were Christian even though they wanted the nation to not have an established religion and wanted people to have freedom to practice what they desired. The only one of the founding fathers I know not to be a Christian was Thomas Jefferson, and I know that he was the one that wanted the nation's seal to have the Israelites crossing the Red Sea opening up with the Pillar of Fire... >_>

1. When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

Qualify -->The Hebrews leaving Egypt. They made it clear they were were doing so because they wished to escape bondage. God seemed to be approving of this since He answered their prayers in this regard.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Qualify --> Life: "Thou shalt not kill."
Liberty: Free will?
Pursuit of happiness: Will

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Qualify -->Government instituted: The Book of Judges
Alter or abolish: Christians disobey when we are commanded to go against God

Different_Name wrote:Well, a major reason a number of groups moved from Europe into the colonies in America was to flee from religious persecution. Most of the colonies had a state religion, it being a denomination of Christianity. Rhode Island, I believe, was the only colony to have freedom of religion, and it was founded by a Christian. A great majority of the Founding Fathers were Christian even though they wanted the nation to not have an established religion and wanted people to have freedom to practice what they desired. The only one of the founding fathers I know not to be a Christian was Thomas Jefferson, and I know that he was the one that wanted the nation's seal to have the Israelites crossing the Red Sea opening up with the Pillar of Fire... >_>

I could actually name more founding fathers who weren't Christian.
John Adams
Benjamin Franklin- Deist
Alexander Hamilton
John Jay
James Madison
Thomas Paine (Very Atheist! I was so surprised!)
And there is a good argument for George Washington but because there is no first person proof... I am not certain.

And Lincoln, though not a founder, but on our money and one of our most famous presidents, did not belong to a church. Many people openly called him an atheist but I think he would just be considered a part of the secular fold today. He did have religious wording in his speeches mostly to sooth the majority.

I think the same could be said for Thomas Jefferson who wrote the Declaration (the most liberal doc of it's time) that he worded it that way to ease the minds of the general public. You don't need to believe in something to write about it.

Not all of our founders agreed but eventually they reached a decision to allow any person choose what they want to believe and have it be OK. They escaped for freedom... and freedom they chose.

-I would like to add that Thomas does have the most documented proof of not being Christian because he was a well educated person who wrote all the time.

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:

Different_Name wrote:Well, a major reason a number of groups moved from Europe into the colonies in America was to flee from religious persecution. Most of the colonies had a state religion, it being a denomination of Christianity. Rhode Island, I believe, was the only colony to have freedom of religion, and it was founded by a Christian. A great majority of the Founding Fathers were Christian even though they wanted the nation to not have an established religion and wanted people to have freedom to practice what they desired. The only one of the founding fathers I know not to be a Christian was Thomas Jefferson, and I know that he was the one that wanted the nation's seal to have the Israelites crossing the Red Sea opening up with the Pillar of Fire... >_>

I could actually name more founding fathers who weren't Christian.
John Adams
Benjamin Franklin- Deist
Alexander Hamilton
John Jay
James Madison
Thomas Paine (Very Atheist! I was so surprised!)
And there is a good argument for George Washington but because there is no first person proof... I am not certain.

And Lincoln, though not a founder, but on our money and one of our most famous presidents, did not belong to a church. Many people openly called him an atheist but I think he would just be considered a part of the secular fold today. He did have religious wording in his speeches mostly to sooth the majority.

I think the same could be said for Thomas Jefferson who wrote the Declaration (the most liberal doc of it's time) that he worded it that way to ease the minds of the general public. You don't need to believe in something to write about it.

Not all of our founders agreed but eventually they reached a decision to allow any person choose what they want to believe and have it be OK. They escaped for freedom... and freedom they chose.

-I would like to add that Thomas does have the most documented proof of not being Christian because he was a well educated person who wrote all the time.

Thomas Jefferson was most certainly not an atheist, but a deist (in fact, I don't know any founding fathers who were actual atheists, but deists if they weren't Christians). George Washington was a fairly strong Christian, and there's actually a very thorough new book out discussing the topic. Roger Williams, a guy from whom Jefferson, John Locke, and others quoted extensively when talking about freedom, was as hardcore Christian as anyone could get. In fact, it was this oft forgotten founding father who really connected the dots between freedom of religion and freedom of anything else. The First Amendment was originally worded (by Madison I believe) to basically quote Williams out of his own sermons. It was Christianity that best articulated freedom, and it is no coincidence whatsoever that it was from Christianity uninhibited by state control that true freedom, for the first time and unlike anywhere else seen in the world, came into being. Roger Williams, by the way, was the founder of Rhode Island you are talking about.

The country isn't perfect, but its incredible the freedom of conscience and believing what we want to believe that was imparted to it. And its amazing that, in that day, the secular and deistic thinkers agreed that they needed the justification of religion to truly develop a free society. Today, you get militant atheists who want to ban freedom of conscience as child abuse or mental insanity. Its a terrifying thing, especially when, as GK Chesterton put it eloquently, it is reason and not imagination, left without boundaries, that causes someone to go insane. I only hope such staunch opponents to freedom never have a place of any true political relevance. They are children when it comes to understanding freedom, and spoiled and untrained children at that.

MarcusOfLycia wrote:

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:

Different_Name wrote:Well, a major reason a number of groups moved from Europe into the colonies in America was to flee from religious persecution. Most of the colonies had a state religion, it being a denomination of Christianity. Rhode Island, I believe, was the only colony to have freedom of religion, and it was founded by a Christian. A great majority of the Founding Fathers were Christian even though they wanted the nation to not have an established religion and wanted people to have freedom to practice what they desired. The only one of the founding fathers I know not to be a Christian was Thomas Jefferson, and I know that he was the one that wanted the nation's seal to have the Israelites crossing the Red Sea opening up with the Pillar of Fire... >_>

I could actually name more founding fathers who weren't Christian.
John Adams
Benjamin Franklin- Deist
Alexander Hamilton
John Jay
James Madison
Thomas Paine (Very Atheist! I was so surprised!)
And there is a good argument for George Washington but because there is no first person proof... I am not certain.

And Lincoln, though not a founder, but on our money and one of our most famous presidents, did not belong to a church. Many people openly called him an atheist but I think he would just be considered a part of the secular fold today. He did have religious wording in his speeches mostly to sooth the majority.

I think the same could be said for Thomas Jefferson who wrote the Declaration (the most liberal doc of it's time) that he worded it that way to ease the minds of the general public. You don't need to believe in something to write about it.

Not all of our founders agreed but eventually they reached a decision to allow any person choose what they want to believe and have it be OK. They escaped for freedom... and freedom they chose.

-I would like to add that Thomas does have the most documented proof of not being Christian because he was a well educated person who wrote all the time.

Thomas Jefferson was most certainly not an atheist, but a deist (in fact, I don't know any founding fathers who were actual atheists, but deists if they weren't Christians). George Washington was a fairly strong Christian, and there's actually a very thorough new book out discussing the topic. Roger Williams, a guy from whom Jefferson, John Locke, and others quoted extensively when talking about freedom, was as hardcore Christian as anyone could get. In fact, it was this oft forgotten founding father who really connected the dots between freedom of religion and freedom of anything else. The First Amendment was originally worded (by Madison I believe) to basically quote Williams out of his own sermons. It was Christianity that best articulated freedom, and it is no coincidence whatsoever that it was from Christianity uninhibited by state control that true freedom, for the first time and unlike anywhere else seen in the world, came into being. Roger Williams, by the way, was the founder of Rhode Island you are talking about.

The country isn't perfect, but its incredible the freedom of conscience and believing what we want to believe that was imparted to it. And its amazing that, in that day, the secular and deistic thinkers agreed that they needed the justification of religion to truly develop a free society. Today, you get militant atheists who want to ban freedom of conscience as child abuse or mental insanity. Its a terrifying thing, especially when, as GK Chesterton put it eloquently, it is reason and not imagination, left without boundaries, that causes someone to go insane. I only hope such staunch opponents to freedom never have a place of any true political relevance. They are children when it comes to understanding freedom, and spoiled and untrained children at that.

Isn't rebelling against a nation and creating a new one... against God? OT though so I guess you could just claim it doesn't apply even though God is eternal, I have seen it played both ways. I am very confused now. Too many "cherry pickers" or not enough to say "forget it".

I am rather confused confused about your child commentary there.

Jonouchi, You make quite a few errors in your post. You need to read a little history and not rely on athiest websites
for your info.

John Adams was indeed a Christian.

On July 1, 1776, John Adams spoke profoundly at the Continental Congress to the delegates from the thirteen colonies.

"Before GOD, I believe the hour has come. My judgement approves this measure, and my whole heart is in it...It is my
living sentiment, and by the blessing of GOD it shall be my dying sentiment. Independence now, and Independence for
ever!"

John Adams from his Diary July 26, 1796 (in retort to Thomas Paine's assertions) wrote: " The Christian religion,
above all the Religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of WISDOM, VIRTUE,
EQUITY, and HUMANITY. Let the Blackguard Paine say what he will; it is resignation to God, it is Goodness itself to
Man" - John Adams

On March 4,1797, in his Inaugural Address, President John Adams declared. " And may that Being, who is supreme over
all, the Patron of Order the Fountain of Justice, and the Protector in all ages of the World of Virtuous liberty, continue His blessings upon this nation"

In a letter dated November 4, 1816 John Adams wrote to Thomas Jefferson "The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my religion..."

Benjamin Franklin was not a Deist. A deist believes that a god has no interaction with its creation. Franklin would
not have been looking for "Divine Protection" or "Superintending Providence" or "God Governing in the Affairs of Man"

To suggest that you don't have to believe something to write it, when referring to the Declaration of Independence, is
just ignorant. And to state that Franklin was a deist is just silly.

During the Constitutional Convention on Thursday June 28, 1787 Ben Franklin addressed the convention and said:

" ...In the beginning of the Contest with G. Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayer in this
room for Divine Protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, & they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged
in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a superintending Providence in our favor. To that kind
providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national
felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? or do we imagine we no longer need his assistance? I have
lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this Truth-that GOD GOVERNS IN THE
AFFAIRS OF MEN. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise
without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that "Except the Lord build the House, they labor
in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in
this political building no better than the builders of Babel"

To quote Jefferson, "I am a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines,
in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; and believing he never claimed any other."-
Thomas Jefferson

And again to quote Jefferson. In Query XIX of his Notes on the State of Virginia. "Those who labor in the earth are
the chosen people of God...whose breasts He made His peculiar deposit for substantial and genuine virtue"



Hamilton? Really? He founded the Christian Constitutional Society with the goal: From a letter to James Bayard.

Let an association be formed to be denominated ``The Christian Constitutional Society.'' Its objects to be:

1st. The support of the Christian religion.

2d. The support of the Constitution of the United States.


John Jay in his last Will and Testament, John Jay wrote:

"Unto Him who is the author and giver of all good, I render sincere and humble thanks for His merciful and unmerited
blessings, and especially for our redemption and salvation by His beloved Son."

John Jay was also the president of the American Bible Society.

George Washington:

July 9, 1776 "The General hopes and trusts that every officer and man, will endeavor so to live, and act, as becomes a
Christian Solider defending the dearest Rights and Liberties of his country" -George Washington

July 2, 1776 " The fate of unborn millions will now depend, under God, on the courage of this army" - George
Washington

May 5, 1778 "It having pleased the Almighty Ruler of the Universe to defend the cause of the United States, and
finally to raise up a powerful friend among the princes of the earth, to establish our liberty and independence upon a
lasting foundation, it becomes us to set apart a day for gratefully acknowledge the Divine goodness, and celebrating
the important event, which we owe to His Divine interposition" - George Washington

Read Washington's Prayer for the United States of America that appears on a plaque in St Paul's chapel in NYC and in
Pohick church in VA, where Washington was a vestryman from 1762 to 1784.

George Washington's own Daughter (adopted) said about questioning his Christianity:

"Is it necessary that any one should certify, "General Washington avowed himself to me a believer in Christianity?" As
well may we question his patriotism, his heroic, disinterested devotion to his country. His mottos were, "Deeds, not
Words"; and, "For God and my Country."

With sentiments of esteem,

I am, Nelly Custis-Lewis"