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Re: Writings of the Christian Mystics
Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:32 pm
by cslewislover
Two more. The writings covering the last four are actually longer than all of the first 12 combined, and I'll post them as soon as I'm able.
11. A showing of Mary, Jesus' mother. Out of all “his creatures,” Jesus' mother gives him the most delight and honor. He made her high and noble out of love for us. “I am not taught that I should long to see her bodily presence while I am here, but simply the good virtues of her holy soul—her truth, her wisdom, and her love. Whereby I may learn to know myself and reverently dread my God” (p 52). Julian had prayed to see Mary, but she was not shown her bodily here; she was shown spiritually. We are to love her because Jesus loves her.
12. Jesus is the most worthy being. Julian sees Jesus in a more glorified state than she had seen before, and she understood that our souls will never have rest until we come to him [Amen]. Then we will know true life, joy, and happiness. She was shown a great many words, actually too many to write or understand. Yet, she says, the reader could come to understand them through God's grace. Julian did write these words of Jesus down:
I it am, I it am;
I it am that is highest;
I it am that you love;
I it am that you like;
I it am that you serve;
I it am that you long for;
I it am that you desire;
I it am that you mean;
I it am that is all;
I it am that holy Church preaches and teaches you;
I it am that showed myself to you here. 
A youtube link to: Newsboys, "He Reigns": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMT_kAD6 ... ef=profile
Re: Writings of the Christian Mystics
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:03 pm
by cslewislover
The 13th showing.
13. There is much to this showing. It involves how noble and excellent is Jesus' works and how our blame will be turned to honor. All things will be made well. Jesus takes Julian back to her feeling of longing for him, and she is shown that each one of us has sin which holds us back, and the sin makes us unclean and not to his liking. So she wonders why sin was not prevented in the first place. Jesus answers her:
“Sin is necessary, but all shall be well. All shall be well; and all manner of thing shall be well” (p 55). Sin is all that is not good; it is not substance, but is known by the pain it causes. “Yet this pain is indeed something, as I see it, for it purges and makes us know ourself as we ask for mercy . . . . And our good Lord, with all the tender love he has for all those that shall be saved, comforts readily and sweetly . . . . Therefore it would be a great unkindness to wonder or complain of sin to God, since he puts no blame on me” (p 55).
Julian beheld that there was a great secret that God will make known in heaven, and that is why sin was allowed. And God's servants will have sorrow, anguish, and tribulation in this world. This is to prevent them from being pompous and vain. On the other hand, she sees that when we show compassion and charity, that is Christ; it's a pouring out of self, just as Christ emptied himself in his passion. When we realize how Christ's own emptying and his pain far exceeds anything we might experience, we are saved from grumbling about our own pain. We realize, too, that because of our sin we deserve it (the pain). Yet “. . . with his great courtesy he does away with all our blame, beholding us with compassion and pity like children who are innocent whom he can never reject” (p 57). Julian is still dismayed at all of the sin and suffering, however. So Jesus tells her that Adam's sin was the greatest harm that has been done, or ever will be, but that Jesus' good work far exceeds Adam's harm.
There are two parts to this truth, about Jesus' good work. The first part is open and known, concerning our salvation, and this is our “business.” “The more plentifully we accept this joy, with reverence and meekness, the more thanks we deserve of him and the more progress we ourselves make. Thus may we come to see that it is our lot to enjoy our Lord” (p 59). The second part is hidden from us, and out of obedience we should not try to find it out. “The saints in heaven wish to know nothing save what our Lord would show them, since their love and desire is ruled only by the will or our Lord. . . . And here I was taught that we should trust and find joy only in our blessed Saviour Jesus for all things” (p 59).
Jesus has a spiritual thirst, a “love-longing,” that will not be quenched until “Doomsday.” This has to do with us being united with him. None will be fully whole in him until the last of all those saved is united with him. Then we will all be whole. “And because of the virtue of this longing of Christ, we in turn long for him, for without it no soul would come to heaven” (p 61). Jesus' longing includes both pity and compassion. “And this is why he has pity and compassion on us, for he longs to have us, but his wisdom and his love do not allow the end to come until the best time” (p 62).
Whoever said “don't sweat the small stuff” apparently didn't know Christ. When Jesus tells us all will be made well, he means “all.” Large and noble as well as low and simple; he wants us to know that. When we see great evil, we mourn over it, thinking no good can come of it. But it is only because we are blind. The Lord wants us to know that since all will be made well, have faith and trust.
“There is the great deed that God has ordained from without beginning, treasured and hidden in his blissful breast, known only to himself, the deed by which he will make all things well. For just as the blessed Trinity made all things from nothing, even so the same blessed Trinity shall make well all that is not well” (p 63).
Julian admits this showing is difficult, and she wonders about people going to hell, but Jesus tells her that all things are possible for him and that all will be well. So we should be like the saints in heaven, who only want the will of God. If we seek instead to try and find God's secrets, we will only find ourselves farther from their knowledge.
Julian had asked to see if a person that she loved would remain in the Lord, but it was not shown her. In fact, she seems to have been rebuked lightly. She was shown that we should seek to see God's will more generally and to see him in everything, and then to know that “all will be well.” She again states that we are made rightful by God out of his goodness, and that we are marvelously kept. Interestingly, Julian says “For it is only by his sufferance we fall” (p 69); another version says only that he allows us to fall (Spearing*, p 90). But then she continues that we are kept by him mightily, and in mercy and grace are we given many joys.
She sees another great deed that the Lord will perform that we do not know of right now. This is a general revelation for our benefit, to help us love the Lord, yet she says that the Lord may reveal more of this to individuals. It is difficult to understand this deed, which will be done sooner than the one already mentioned. She says it is for all of humanity yet it will be done “when each of us comes to heaven” (p 71). So she calls is “a” great deed for all, but it is individually done.
The Lord tells Julian that he will continue to perform miracles.
Next “God brought to mind that I would sin; yet since my liking was on beholding him, I was not ready to attend to this showing” (p 72). Julian's admissions make for a very readable account by a mystic. “And our Lord most mercifully remained and gave me grace to listen to him” (p 72). She at first thought this was a personal revelation, but it was not, it was for all Christians. And while she feared over her future sins, the Lord told her that he would surely keep her. This was an extreme comfort to her, and it is to be for all lovers of Jesus. Our higher part does not will to sin and never shall; it is only our lower part that does. Jesus loves us now just the same as when we will be with him face to face. “It is only the failing of love on our side that is the cause of all our travail” (p 73).
Julian is shown how sin and suffering here will be to our benefit in heaven, and it made her very merry. What she writes here is pretty amazing, and perhaps controversial, so I will present much of it.
"God also showed that sin shall cause us no shame, but will even be accounted to our honor. For just as every sin is answered in reality by a particular pain, so for every sin that same soul is given joy by love. And as different sins are punished by various pains in accordance with their gravity, so will they be rewarded in heaven by joys that differ according to the pain and sorrow they caused that soul on earth. For the soul coming to heaven is precious to God, while the place itself is destined to reward us so fully that God in his goodness never permits sinful souls to come there without rewarding them for the pain they suffered by their sins. And this is made known without end while they are joyfully restored with overpassing honor" (p 73).
We are led by the Holy Spirit to confess our sins, and thus we will see the truth of them and have great sorrow, as they denigrate God's image. And even though we may get to the point where we feel almost forsaken, we need to know that the Lord keeps us as his “most precious prize always” (p 76). Our remorse over our sin causes us to be meek and have a true longing for God. Again, Julian presents us with such encouragement that it is good to read much of her own words:
"By contrition we are made clean, by compassion we are made ready, and by true longing for God we are made worthy of him. These three are means by which, as I understand, all souls come to heaven; that is to say, those who have sinned on earth and shall yet be saved, for by these medicines it is fitting that every soul be healed. And though a soul be healed, its wounds are seen before God, no longer as wounds but as trophies. So, on the other hand, as we have been punished here by sorrow and by penance, we will be rewarded in heaven by the courteous love of our Lord god almighty who desires that no one coming to him loses in any degree by all such labors. For he holds sin as a sorrow and pain to his lovers, in whom he assigns no blame for his love" (p 76).
Julian goes on to say that, though we can't see it, the Lord keeps us tenderly while we are in sin. He nudges us easily and sweetly to recognize our sin so that we may confess and have assurance of forgiveness, and close fellowship with him again. “For he longs ceaselessly to bring us to fullest joy . . .” (p 78), although we cannot experience this wholly until we are in heaven.
It is false thinking, and a temptation, to think that it is allright to sin in order to receive more merit. We should loathe sin, as sin is a pain itself that is worse than any other. “And I was shown no harder hell than sin, for of its very nature, the soul knows no other hell but sin” (p 78). We need to fix ourselves on Christ and his love, and we will be made clean through his mercy and grace. We are to try and perfect our Christ-like love toward our fellow Christians, and thus hate sin as God does, and love souls as God loves.
*Julian of Norwich: Revelations of Divine Love (translated by Elizabeth Spearing, Penguin Books 1998).
Chasing after the Lord (to music!): http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zHfzrqLIniE
Re: Writings of the Christian Mystics
Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:24 pm
by Furstentum Liechtenstein
cslewislover wrote:11. A showing of Mary, Jesus' mother. Out of all “his creatures,” Jesus' mother gives him the most delight and honor. He made her high and noble out of love for us. “I am not taught that I should long to see her bodily presence while I am here, but simply the good virtues of her holy soul—her truth, her wisdom, and her love. Whereby I may learn to know myself and reverently dread my God” (p 52). Julian had prayed to see Mary, but she was not shown her bodily here; she was shown spiritually. We are to love her because Jesus loves her.
This sounds Roman Catholic. Far be it from me to knock Catholics, but just how do I go about loving Mary?
FL
Re: Writings of the Christian Mystics
Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:37 pm
by cslewislover
Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:cslewislover wrote:11. A showing of Mary, Jesus' mother. Out of all “his creatures,” Jesus' mother gives him the most delight and honor. He made her high and noble out of love for us. “I am not taught that I should long to see her bodily presence while I am here, but simply the good virtues of her holy soul—her truth, her wisdom, and her love. Whereby I may learn to know myself and reverently dread my God” (p 52). Julian had prayed to see Mary, but she was not shown her bodily here; she was shown spiritually. We are to love her because Jesus loves her.
This sounds Roman Catholic. Far be it from me to knock Catholics, but just how do I go about loving Mary?
FL
I think it's obvious that Mary must've been a major thing even when Julian lived (the Catholic church was the only thing going, too). You can tell because she prayed to see her. The Lord was gracious to Julian in giving her one of her prayer requests. But, she says we are to love her because Jesus does (she was his earthly mother, afterall), not worship her or pray to her. I take it we're to love her just like we love any other Christian, but then there's more to her in Jesus' eyes.
Re: Writings of the Christian Mystics
Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:31 pm
by cslewislover
I found this in Mere Theology: A Guide to the Thought of C.S. Lewis (Will Vaus,InterVarsity Press 2004, p 64), which relates to one (in particular) of Julian's visions.
"The doctrine that God was under no necessity to create is essential. Without it, Lewis maintains, we can hardly avoid the conception of what he calls a 'managerial' God, a being whose function is simply to 'run' the universe. Why would God need to create when in himself, in the Trinity, he is already Sovereign of a far greater realm? Lewis asserts that we must keep before our eyes the vision of Lady Julian of Norwich wherein God carried in his hand a little object like a nut, and that nut was 'all that is made.' The God who needs nothing loves us into existence only so that he may love and perfect us."
"In other words, we are created for God's pleasure. Lewis elaborates on this in The Problem of Pain. He writes that human beings are not the center of Creation. God doesn't exist for the sake of humanity. Human beings do not even exist for their own sake. Lewis quotes Revelation 4:11: 'Thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.' We were made so as to become objects in which the Divine love might rest well pleased."
Re: Writings of the Christian Mystics
Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:56 pm
by cslewislover
BW, I've been reading your book and I wanted to make a comment or two before I went on, I guess because of the feeling I was having. When I read through the part where you described your dying, I was almost feeling it too. I guess you did a good job explaining it! I'm going, "OMG! OMG!" Well, not exactly, but I can't explain it. Also, you describe someone speaking to you by thought (p 65), and it reminded me of how CS Lewis describes once having contact with his late wife. Have you ever read A Grief Observed? It's in there. But it's like what the Holy Spirit can do here too.
Anyway, you were a bad bad boy!
Re: Writings of the Christian Mystics
Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 5:46 am
by Furstentum Liechtenstein
cslewislover wrote: Lewis asserts that we must keep before our eyes the vision of Lady Julian of Norwich wherein God carried in his hand a little object like a nut, and that nut was 'all that is made.'
That's a nice way to see creation!
cslewislover wrote:BW, I've been reading your book...you were a bad bad boy!
Yes, B.W. was quite rotten, but God has used him powerfully since his NDE.
FL
Re: Writings of the Christian Mystics
Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 8:34 am
by cslewislover
Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
cslewislover wrote:BW, I've been reading your book...you were a bad bad boy!
Yes, B.W. was quite rotten, but God has used him powerfully since his NDE.
FL
Yes, and because of this he reminds me of a lot of Calvary Chapel pastors, at least the early ones. One pastor has a great testimony up at his church site, here http://www.ccsouthbay.org/pastor_steve/
Re: Writings of the Christian Mystics
Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:54 pm
by B. W.
Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:cslewislover wrote: Lewis asserts that we must keep before our eyes the vision of Lady Julian of Norwich wherein God carried in his hand a little object like a nut, and that nut was 'all that is made.'
That's a nice way to see creation!
cslewislover wrote:BW, I've been reading your book...you were a bad bad boy!
Yes, B.W. was quite rotten, but God has used him powerfully since his NDE.
FL
Well, I used to argue against Christians and now I argue with atheist, agnostics, cultist and those holding aberrant forms of Christian doctrine! What a switch. Looking back, I can see God even used that prior past experience of arguing to equip me later on.
The Lord truly works in mysterious way!
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Re: Writings of the Christian Mystics
Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 3:09 pm
by Cross.eyed
cslewislover, Thanks for the link, that is a great testimony!
Re: Writings of the Christian Mystics
Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 3:18 pm
by cslewislover
Cross.eyed wrote:cslewislover, Thanks for the link, that is a great testimony!
Yay! I don't have the best memory, but I remembered that pastor's church and so got the link. The book that that is from is pretty neat. Another Calvary Chapel pastor, Raul Ries, has a book-length testimony that's really amazing too. Oh, I just found that he has his testimony on YouTube! http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Ha_tSzPvcds If you or anyone else is interested.
Re: Writings of the Christian Mystics
Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:00 pm
by Cross.eyed
cslewislover wrote:Cross.eyed wrote:cslewislover, Thanks for the link, that is a great testimony!
Yay! I don't have the best memory, but I remembered that pastor's church and so got the link. The book that that is from is pretty neat. Another Calvary Chapel pastor, Raul Ries has a book-length testimony that's really amazing too. Oh, I just found that he has his testimony on YouTube! http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Ha_tSzPvcds If you or anyone else is interested.
I tried the link (Ries) but it didn't work.
Re: Writings of the Christian Mystics
Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:04 pm
by cslewislover
That's weird, as it just worked for me. I've seen that on other boards, though, where some people have a hard time with a link and other's don't. Maybe you could go to YouTube and search for Raul Ries? He was quite the violent person until he came to Christ.
When I worked with domestic violence victims at the courthouse, I found that even though the perpetrators were often required to take classes to get them to stop their abuse, only a small fraction ever got better. I think it was 3%. In fact, they often learned how to be more efficient abusers.
Re: Writings of the Christian Mystics
Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:01 pm
by Furstentum Liechtenstein
I'm not really into mystics but this thread has piqued my curiosity. I have dusted off my copy of Augustine's The City of God and have been reading it here and there - not formally, not studying, but just for fun - and have found this excellent word picture of Jesus:
For this is the Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. For it is as man that He is the Mediator and the Way. Since, if the way lieth between him who goes and the place wither he goes, there is hope of his reaching it; but if there be no way, or if he know not where it is, what boots it to know whither he should go? Now the only way that is infallibly secured against all mistakes, is when the very same person is at once God and man, God our end, man our way. -Book XI, last paragraph of chap. 2
Read it again. Look past the old English and meditate on it.
FL
Re: Writings of the Christian Mystics
Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:36 pm
by Cross.eyed
For this is the Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. For it is as man that He is the Mediator and the Way. Since, if the way lieth between him who goes and the place wither he goes, there is hope of his reaching it; but if there be no way, or if he know not where it is, what boots it to know whither he should go? Now the only way that is infallibly secured against all mistakes, is when the very same person is at once God and man, God our end, man our way. -Book XI, last paragraph of chap. 2
Read it again. Look past the old English and meditate on it.
FL
I read it four times giving thought to each reading.
It comes up as Pascal's Wager being possibly derived from Augustine's statement, that is if i'm not reading too much into it.
Now my head hurts.