Evidence for God from Science

FFC, you know I love you to death, and I certainly don't believe that you would intentionally call God evil. But in statement you are making, that you can't see how a loving God could do something that, to you, seems so evil, is to say that God is, in some sense, evil. That's the whole reason you have a problem with it. If you didn't believe God was loving and good, then you would have no problem with God doing something you though was evil--at least, no theological problem. It is precisely because you see God doing something that you believe to be evil that you have this problem.

The situation is similar to when a man asks his wife where she was after having been out late, and when she tells him, he doubts. He, in effect, thinks, in some sense of the word, that she is lying. He is, then, calling her a liar.

What I am saying the solution to this is the same as God said in Job. You are simply not in possession of all the facts. You are not God. You are not omniscient. You know those things. I am asking you to reflect on it. If you knew everything God knew, you would see how none of these things are evil. But as you are not in possession of all the facts, from your limited knowledge, they appear evil. So you have to submit to the fact that you are not God.

You must also submit to the fact that we DESERVE all of this. All of these things you call evil, you call so because the underlying thought is that they should not happen to people. But I say they should. We all deserve these fates and then so much more. We say that it would have been better for God to have quickly annihalated those people (and we say that about Hell). Supposedly, that would be more merciful, it would be better. But wait a moment! Who says we deserve mercy? We do not! We deserve even worse punishment than we receive, both here and in the hereafter.

The problem, then, is twofold:

1. We are arrogant enough to believe that we know all the same things that God, or put differently, that we are qualified to ask the question;
2. We are arrogant enough to believe that we don't deserve such evil.

The problem, my friend, is not the presence of evil or how God could allow, or even command, these evils. The problem is the problem of Good. Evil is easy to understand. It is not shocking. What is shocking is that He would allow even a moments goodness toward any of us. That, my friend, is the grace that we should be shocked by. Anything less and we should, like Job, confess our sin of arrogance, repent, and sit in dust and ashes.

God bless

JAC, I completely agree! I know that God is good, I know we all deserve judgement, etc. but like I said it doesn't make sense to me in light of who I think God to be...maybe my ideas of him is skewed or not complete. Thank you for your reply, Jac. I do appreciate it as usual.

FFC wrote:

JAC wrote:While I could suggest answers to your questions, Catherine, your basic condemnation of God as evil and rejection of the justice of Hell says more than anything I could, I think.

Jac, I don't think Catherine or myself are suggesting that God is evil. Only that we are having trouble reconciling a loving, long suffering, ever merciful, God with one who would send his people into foreign nations to slay innocents. In the new testament Jesus say to allow the little children to come unto him because of such is the kingdom of God. In the old He sends His people in to slaughter them. To me the God of the old testament is in stark contrast to the God of the new (Jesus) on many issues. I would never call God evil.

FFC and catherine, I know you have addressed this to JAC, and to be honest, he can explain it much better than I can but, I f we think about it, the verse you just cited that... "such is the kingdom of God." can be taken as being humble and meek as a child who is under responsible authority, then it could very well be related to thinking all children who died under the age of responsibility (or reason) would be in heaven.
There is biblical evidence to suggest this.

Another thought is, and may be applicable to the Amalekite children, that God rescued them from future evil(s).
It is no stretch to think that in such an evil society, that many worse evil(s) could befall the children and babies.
Even though it is hard to imagine a worse fate than being "passed through the fire" as the children and babies were, there could have been even worse events had they lived.
I am confident that all children, under the given age, who leave this world are with God and have everlasting life.

My last reply on the subject--and I'll just say this has just become a personal reality to me in the last two months--I think the Bible already made the point I am trying to make. I don't think our ideas of God are skewed. I think our ideas of ourselves are skewed. Anyway, allow me to quote a passage, and I think it speaks for itself:

• Then Job replied to the LORD : "I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted. You asked, 'Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?' Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know. You said, 'Listen now, and I will speak; I will question you, and you shall answer me.' My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes." (Job 42:1-6, NIV)

Again, God bless

Another possible explanation as to why God would command children and babies to be killed was the spread of the nephilim. For the most part the Israelis were to make peace with a city before they went into battle Deut. 20:10, however when they ever came across the camps of these genetically altered hybrid people, the only way to deal with them was utter death. For me this seems to be the best plausible explanation...

Gman wrote:Another possible explanation as to why God would command children and babies to be killed was the spread of the nephilim. For the most part the Israelis were to make peace with a city before they went into battle Deut. 20:10, however when they ever came across the camps of these genetically altered hybrid people, the only way to deal with them was utter death. For me this seems to be the best plausible explanation...

That is an interesting thought.

Thanks for all your thoughts on this.
Jac, you said: '' Until you come to recognize that human beings absolutely and totally deserve every moment of torture in an eternal hell, you will always have a problem with the justice of God, for you see yourself (and other supposedly "innocent" people) as not REALLY being THAT bad.'' I completely and utterly reject and abhor this statement of yours. It repulses me and fortunately after studying this in great length I am convinced you are utterly wrong. You are asking us to suspend our common sense and the usual measuring sticks we use in this life, regarding these massacres, and just accept cos we don't know ? If God is anything like Jesus, then if there is a good reason, He won't be biting my head off for wondering about it. Once I know the reason I may feel real bad that I doubted Him, but from this perspective, here in the 21st century, I can't see an explanantion - and in Job's case, the evil being done to him was via Satan, not God. God allowed Satan to test Job. God allows evil up to today. This is hard to accept, but I understand everything has to run it's course to the sorry end.

catherine wrote:Thanks for all your thoughts on this.
Jac, you said: '' Until you come to recognize that human beings absolutely and totally deserve every moment of torture in an eternal hell, you will always have a problem with the justice of God, for you see yourself (and other supposedly "innocent" people) as not REALLY being THAT bad.'' I completely and utterly reject and abhor this statement of yours. It repulses me and fortunately after studying this in great length I am convinced you are utterly wrong. You are asking us to suspend our common sense and the usual measuring sticks we use in this life, regarding these massacres, and just accept cos we don't know ? If God is anything like Jesus, then if there is a good reason, He won't be biting my head off for wondering about it. Once I know the reason I may feel real bad that I doubted Him, but from this perspective, here in the 21st century, I can't see an explanantion - and in Job's case, the evil being done to him was via Satan, not God. God allowed Satan to test Job. God allows evil up to today. This is hard to accept, but I understand everything has to run it's course to the sorry end.

What's worse...dying by the sword in one quick slash to the neck or the death endured and suffered by Jesus? I say in the greater scheme of things, these babies and "innocents" fared pretty well within the Mercy of God!

I believe as Jac does...we deserve far worse...we are sinful and God alone is Righteous.
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Maybe part my problem is that I am looking at this from an emotional standpoint. I don't know. I do know that God's Holy Wrath is only part of who He is, and not His totality... and every creature of His is important to Him and loved by him.

FFC wrote:Maybe part my problem is that I am looking at this from an emotional standpoint. I don't know. I do know that God's Holy Wrath is only part of who He is, and not His totality... and every creature of His is important to Him and loved by him.

Yes, it's hard to reconcile when we obvioulsy recoil at such violence and we know that we are not supposed to do those kind of acts ourselves. So how can God our Father, who is supposed to be better than us, and our example (through Christ), condone those things? (I'm not saying I don't trust God and what He has done - I do.) So it is hard, emotionally, and it is hard to explain it to nonchristians. I'm trying to find out more about this.

Those articles Kurieou provided look good - very detailed and very long! Must . . . get . . . through . . . them.

I must have missed Kurieuo's post. I'll check the articles out.

We do deserve punishment, or judgement. I agree. God is the righteous judge and does not repay back what we deserve. I'm sure there is a verse somewhere that says such??

Bavarian Wheels, both methods of death are gruesome and not what God would want surely?? Jesus said 'forgive them'. So to say these babies faired pretty well is bulls***, forgive my expletive. This makes me mad. And we don't deserve to be rendered in two by a sword. Yes, we deserve punishment and correction, which we shall receive, but in a fair and loving manner. Yes, we receive 'death' as the judgment God meted out to humans. He didn't say to Adam and Eve, oh by the way, you've sinned so now I'm going to slice you in two with a sword. Why do people get het up about abortions and not get het up at the many babies that were killed, (and unborn babies) that were killed then? It's like a double standard of morality. Can't you see this is fraught with problems?

catherine wrote:I must have missed Kurieuo's post. I'll check the articles out.

We do deserve punishment, or judgement. I agree. God is the righteous judge and does not repay back what we deserve. I'm sure there is a verse somewhere that says such??

Bavarian Wheels, both methods of death are gruesome and not what God would want surely?? Jesus said 'forgive them'. So to say these babies faired pretty well is bulls***, forgive my expletive. This makes me mad. And we don't deserve to be rendered in two by a sword. Yes, we deserve punishment and correction, which we shall receive, but in a fair and loving manner. Yes, we receive 'death' as the judgment God meted out to humans. He didn't say to Adam and Eve, oh by the way, you've sinned so now I'm going to slice you in two with a sword. Why do people get het up about abortions and not get het up at the many babies that were killed, (and unborn babies) that were killed then? It's like a double standard of morality. Can't you see this is fraught with problems?

Sorry I offend you...of course you realize you shouldn't be aiming expletives at me, but at the one you blame or question these acts of. If "we" don't deserve to be sliced in two by a sword, are you saying burned is the more deserving manner of dying?

BTW...God will not be correcting anyone at the end. Correction assumes allowing to continue. There is no second chance. All will bow and acknowledge God...not all will live to fulfill that belief.

Death is death...what does it matter in which form it is handed to the created by the Creator?
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cslewislover wrote:Yes, it's hard to reconcile when we obvioulsy recoil at such violence and we know that we are not supposed to do those kind of acts ourselves. So how can God our Father, who is supposed to be better than us, and our example (through Christ), condone those things? (I'm not saying I don't trust God and what He has done - I do.) So it is hard, emotionally, and it is hard to explain it to nonchristians. I'm trying to find out more about this.

I would admit that we as mere mortals don't necessarily understand the ways of God...

Let's look at it this way... Do we as mortals hire police or army men/women to do our justice? And do we see them as being the "peace keepers" or not? And yet under certain circumstances they actually have to kill people to serve justice... Sometimes it's the only choice... And women and children die too when we bomb cities. Is that justice? If not we should also destroy our government as well for injustice's sake.

Another passage that always helps me in understanding the ways of God are passages like Ezekiel 33:11. Why? Because God does NOT delight in he death of the wicked. He is not some kind of killjoy delighting in the death of anyone..

Ezekiel 33:11

11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel.

I hope this helps....

This post on war might also shed some light on the subject as well... Another little gem is here Evidence for God from Science: Christian Apologetics Did God Commit Atrocities by Ordering the Killing of Entire Cities of People?