Evidence for God from Science

nd925 wrote:My question is this: If God did not create evil then how can He be sovereign? Evil was created, God is sovereign, God created evil, seems simple to me. I'm not saying that God is evil because he created evil, I believe that God could have created evil and not be evil himself. He gave us free will, with that free will, He gave us choices, good or evil- with Him or against Him. Without the choice of evil, then why would He give us free will. Gen 2:9 And the Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground--trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.(NIV) Am I missing something here?

We've already covered this at length. I don't think you read the posts in this thread before posting. God can allow something (e.g. evil) to exist for a temporary period of time which He did not create and use it for greater eternal good.

Let's try an example which isn't a perfect example just my best thinking at the moment. If you and your spouse lovingly decide to have a child and make all the necessary provisions possible so that the child can have the best upbringing and life possible and spend your life pouring everything you have into the child's development and life, yet the child grows up and makes a willful knowing choice to be evil choosing to disregard all the good lessons and morals they were taught, modeled, and shown: did you create the child or did you create the evil and so should therefore be held criminally liable for the evil your offspring chose to engage in as an adult despite the best efforts to raise a good person? You are indicating it is the parent's fault (your own fault in this example) simply because they chose to bring a child possessing the ability of freewill into this world.

Let's go back to the original post and see if it stands on its merits; the first half anyway, because if the first half is jacked, then the second half is irrelevant to the topic.

a. God created everything.
b. Evil exists.
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c.God created evil.

In order for this to be a logical statement, both a. and b. must be true. So, first of all, is a. true? Second, I think that most people on the planet can agree that evil exists, unless you're taoist, but is evil a created thing?

Hi, I feel that God only created good. He is the source of everything, including our free will.God was pleased with his creation: it was good. Evil isn't a product of God's creation. It is a failure on the part of the evil-doer to use his/her free will for only good, which God intended. Herbert McCabe, in his "God matters" said that sin is a deficiency and is therefore a failure on the part of the sinner to be what he/she could've been. This failure is a negative, and God hadn't created negatives. So while the acts of evil beings like Hitler or Stalin are certainly dependent on the existence of the world, thus in some sense dependent on God, they were most certainly not created *by* God. McCabe called these "negative properties" of the killer's acts. They are not existent, i.e., created things. So sin is not made by God, thus not the responsibility of God.

Dan

Hi all,
This is a great discussion and when all is said and done we will probably just have to agree to disagree which is fine. What ever God has spoken to you and where ever He had you land on this topic is fine. Ultimately it has us discussing what really matters, God. And if we can grow closer to Him in all this then it's worth it. I believe we can all agree on that?

Ageofknowledge, In order for us to have freewill wouldn't there need to be choices available for us to choose from? God gave the angels freewill, so if there were no choices available to choose from, i.e., only good, then there would have never been a fall. Is God not all knowing, all powerful, and creator of all things? I find it comforting to know that God created all things, knows all things, and controls all things, evil included. Didn't lucifer have to get permission from God to torment Job? Wouldn't a General that knows the plans of his enemies be more likely to win the battle? How much more of a guaranteed victory would he have if he created the plans of his enemy? And how confident and secure would you feel if you were on the side of that General? God is that General.

Warhoop, I agree that A (God created everything) + B (evil exists) = C (God created evil). As far as your question if evil is a created thing, I say yes. If we say evil is not a created thing, then can we say good is not a created thing as well? I think the verse I posted in my original post says it all, Gen 2:9 And the Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground--trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. (NIV).

DannyM, You wrote, “It is a failure on the part of the evil-doer to use his/her free will for only good, which God intended”. I ask you then, where did the evil that the evil-doer is choosing come from? I believe that God gave us freewill to choose good or evil and yes it is God's desire for us to choose good. However the choice of evil is there for us to choose from otherwise God would have created us without freewill. We were created to worship God, were we not? How much more glory does God receive when we choose Him over evil? When we choose good over evil we glorify God in that choice. Lets try this analogy, you're with a bunch of guys selecting teams to play basketball. The 2 captains are choosing players one at a time. Where do you want to get picked? How would you feel if you were picked solely because there was no one left to be picked? How awesome is it if you are picked first? Now how do you think God feels when you choose Him over evil? I believe that is how God wants it to be, He wants you to pick Him first, over all things. If He is not picked first then He may as well have been picked last.
“Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and all things shall follow”.

Here are some other scriptures that I think further back up my point that God created evil and uses it for His greater good.
Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
Deu 30:15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction.
Lam 3:38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?

Again, I think this is a great discussion and we can probably go back and forth on it forever, with scriptures and other publications backing either point stacked a mile high. I think it's a healthy discussion between believers and not a theological face off. I just pray that this discussion helps us to grow in our faith and knowledge in Him.

warhoop wrote:Let's go back to the original post and see if it stands on its merits; the first half anyway, because if the first half is jacked, then the second half is irrelevant to the topic.

a. God created everything.
b. Evil exists.
--------------
c.God created evil.

In order for this to be a logical statement, both a. and b. must be true. So, first of all, is a. true? Second, I think that most people on the planet can agree that evil exists, unless you're taoist, but is evil a created thing?

a. is true for the sake of the argument. Consider the following:

1. Everything that exists comes from God;
2. Everything that comes from God is good;
3. Evil exists;
4. Therefore evil must come from God;
5. But that contradicts (2);
6. Therefore, either (1) is false or God does not exist.

Notice in these statements that "God" is assumed, for the sake of argument, to discuss the internal consistency of the idea. Therefore, you don't have to prove God exists before you can prove a. to be true. It's part of the definition of "God." To put it differently, we are using the word "God" in an analytical sense. Consider the following:

1. All unmarried men are bachelors;
2. Paul is married;
3. Therefore, Paul is not a bachelor.

Do I have to prove that bachelor's exist before I can accept (1)? No. It is part of the definition of "Bachelor." Likewise, "the creator of everything" is part of the definition of God.

So, to answer your first point, again, we do NOT have to prove that God exists in order to affirm a.

As to your second point, I would be one who disagrees that evil exists--certainly not in the metaphysical sense of the word. Evil doesn't exist any more than darkness, cold, or emptiness exist. All of these things are a lack of something, not a something in and of themselves. Darkness is a lack of light. Cold is a lack of heat. Emptiness is a lack of matter. Likewise, evil is a lack--a privation, to use the technical word--of God. Thus, God did not create evil any more than He created darkness, cold, or emptiness. He created things, but those are not things. Again, let's use a syllogism:

1. Only things can be created;
2. Evil is not a thing;
3. Therefore, evil cannot be created.

If Evil is a lack of goodness (which was created by God), then the only thing God created was good. In that respect, God never created evil, and thus this entire thread is based on a false premise. There are much better ways to phrase the problem of evil. This, unfortunately, is a rather silly one that doesn't do it justice at all.

Bravo well said

To say evil, darkness, and cold don't exist is silly, we are surrounded by these things every where. There are plenty of God's creation that depend on darkness and cold for survival. If you say that evil is not a thing, then how can you say that good is a thing? You're basing your argument on evil being a lack of good which is fine, but you can turn the table and say that good is the lack of evil, darkness is the lack of light, and cold is the lack of heat.
Are there any scriptures that back up your argument that evil, darkness, and cold do not exist? That God did not create evil, darkness, and cold?

As to your second point, I would be one who disagrees that evil exists--certainly not in the metaphysical sense of the word. Evil doesn't exist any more than darkness, cold, or emptiness exist. All of these things are a lack of something, not a something in and of themselves. Darkness is a lack of light. Cold is a lack of heat. Emptiness is a lack of matter. Likewise, evil is a lack--a privation, to use the technical word--of God. Thus, God did not create evil any more than He created darkness, cold, or emptiness. He created things, but those are not things. Again, let's use a syllogism:

So atheists are evil by definition?

Merriam Webster define "evil" as follows ...

1 a: morally reprehensible : sinful, wicked <an evil impulse> b: arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct <a person of evil reputation>2 aarchaic : inferior b: causing discomfort or repulsion : offensive <an evil odor> c: disagreeable <woke late and in an evil temper>3 a: causing harm : pernicious <the evil institution of slavery> b: marked by misfortune : unlucky

For Example: John List was no atheist (he cold-bloodily murdered his wife and 3 children in the early 1970's because "he was concerned for their salvation") and apparently not insane (he methodically carried out the murders, fled, started a new life under a new name, remarried, and was a respected member of his community and church until his arrest almost 20 years later). I think most people would consider his action to have been "evil".

I am in no way saying that religion was responsible for the murder of List's family. I bring List's belief up merely to show that evil is not a "lack of God" (in the sense of darkness being a lack of light), but an actual concept in its own right

nd925 wrote:To say evil, darkness, and cold don't exist is silly, we are surrounded by these things every where. There are plenty of God's creation that depend on darkness and cold for survival. If you say that evil is not a thing, then how can you say that good is a thing? You're basing your argument on evil being a lack of good which is fine, but you can turn the table and say that good is the lack of evil, darkness is the lack of light, and cold is the lack of heat.
Are there any scriptures that back up your argument that evil, darkness, and cold do not exist? That God did not create evil, darkness, and cold?

Heat and light are forms of energy. Cold and darkness are the absence of those forms of energy. Heat, cold, light, and darkness are actually relative terms. For example: "room temperature" is "warm" compared to a mid-winters day at the South Pole, but "cold" compared to the normal operating temperature of your car's engine. But there IS a lowest possible temperature - "absolute zero" which is the total lack of energy (aka total lack of heat). There is a similar relationship between "light" and "darkness".

Unfortunately, there is no such limit to evil.

You are no more and no less sinful, or evil, than any of us. That is our condition of human nature. YOu simply have denied God and have no relationship with HIm. You stand in need of reconciliation just as much as we do but haven't believed that Jesus is that reconciliation, that He is who He said He is and did what He said He did.

Our righteousness is solely in Jesus CHrist, He is the propitiation for our sins. He has taken on the wrath from God for our sins.

nd925 wrote:Hi all,

DannyM, You wrote, “It is a failure on the part of the evil-doer to use his/her free will for only good, which God intended”. I ask you then, where did the evil that the evil-doer is choosing come from? I believe that God gave us freewill to choose good or evil and yes it is God's desire for us to choose good. However the choice of evil is there for us to choose from otherwise God would have created us without freewill. We were created to worship God, were we not? How much more glory does God receive when we choose Him over evil? When we choose good over evil we glorify God in that choice. Lets try this analogy, you're with a bunch of guys selecting teams to play basketball. The 2 captains are choosing players one at a time. Where do you want to get picked? How would you feel if you were picked solely because there was no one left to be picked? How awesome is it if you are picked first? Now how do you think God feels when you choose Him over evil? I believe that is how God wants it to be, He wants you to pick Him first, over all things. If He is not picked first then He may as well have been picked last.
“Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and all things shall follow”.

Hey Nd925, I take your point about being chosen first for the team. What a feeling! And being picked last is gonna make you feel very low. But, while God would love us to choose him first, I'll wager he's not too upset when someone truly repents and picks him last! But like I said, evil and sin are negative properties of the person who has abused his free will and God's graciousness. Take nuclear physics. Without nuclear physics scientists wouldn't have been able to comprehend the workings of radiation and we wouldn't have xrays, which have saved and are still saving countless lives. Now a negative property of nuclear physics (or science) would be the atom bomb. Do we say that science created the atom bomb, or nuclear physics created the atom bomb? I'd say that certain individuals had abused science and all the good that could come from it and chosen a negative path, completely at odds with science.

Dan

zoegirl wrote:You are no more and no less sinful, or evil, than any of us. That is our condition of human nature. YOu simply have denied God and have no relationship with HIm. You stand in need of reconciliation just as much as we do but haven't believed that Jesus is that reconciliation, that He is who He said He is and did what He said He did.

Our righteousness is solely in Jesus CHrist, He is the propitiation for our sins. He has taken on the wrath from God for our sins.

My only point (assuming your post was meant for me) was that "evil" is more than a simple "lack" of God. Specifically disagreeing with ...

jac3510 wrote:evil is a lack--a privation, to use the technical word--of God.

... from a few posts back in this thread.

BTW Is there any way to reference another post other than by quoting it? It would by handy to reference another post for context without copying the entire thing into a quote. This would also maintain the context of the referenced post within the thread.

I don't disagree with either you or Jac

Absolutely evil is the lack of God. Our rebellion, our sin, is essentially our rejection of God. Everything we do in sin is a decalration of war against God, who He is and what He wants us to do. But that doesn't mean that what we do is completely eveil or compeltely depraved. It means that sin or that rebellion, that self-absorption, is permeated throughout our actions, our thoughts. Nothing we do is without it.

My main point was to your asking that , as an atheist, does that make you evil. UNregnerate man stands in ned o a savior, he is sinful. Does his rejection of God make him any more evil or sinful than he already is? I would say rather his rejection of God is merely a manifestation of his unregenerate status. We are all born in sin.

Sorry Wayne, I had a typo. Evil is a lack of "good", not God. Sometimes, I capitalize "Good" when talking about it in the abstract, as in Good vs. Evil. I just missed an 'o'.

In the case of the murderer you mentioned, you can see all kinds of lacking. While the nutjob may have had the good desire to save his victim's souls, he lacked the right way to go about it. Further, his actions were a deep dismissal of such things as kindness, respect, and love for others. Those are all things. The lack of kindness is cruelty; the lack of respect is disrespect; the lack of love is hate. Murder is simply cruelty, disrepect, and hatred in one of its most highly expressible form (in addition to still other lackings).

So, again, evil, in and of itself, is no thing. It is a lack of good things.

Question for you. Have you looked at the different theories of ethics, specifically, teleological, deontological, and virtue?

Jac3510 wrote:Sorry Wayne, I had a typo. Evil is a lack of "good", not God. Sometimes, I capitalize "Good" when talking about it in the abstract, as in Good vs. Evil. I just missed an 'o'.

No problem.

In the case of the murderer you mentioned, you can see all kinds of lacking. While the nutjob may have had the good desire to save his victim's souls, he lacked the right way to go about it. Further, his actions were a deep dismissal of such things as kindness, respect, and love for others. Those are all things. The lack of kindness is cruelty; the lack of respect is disrespect; the lack of love is hate. Murder is simply cruelty, disrepect, and hatred in one of its most highly expressible form (in addition to still other lackings).

Yeah, he was a nutjob - and one of "Americas Most Wanted"'s bigger successes. They caught him because a forensics tech computer aged his picture, and AMW made an episode of his story that included the "aged" picture. One of his neighbors recognized him from the picture and dropped a dime on him. I found the story fascinating.

So, again, evil, in and of itself, is no thing. It is a lack of good things.

I don't agree - there's a big difference between someone who is self-centered, greedy, arrogant, and inconsiderate of others (ie lacking common human decency and goodness) and someone who actively goes out to harm others, is cruel, purposely inflicts pain on others, etc. IMO "evil" is active (involves doing, or causing to be done, heinous acts such as rape, murder, torture, etc.)

Question for you. Have you looked at the different theories of ethics, specifically, teleological, deontological, and virtue?

Yes, a long time ago in college philosophy. Probably no surprise to you, I lean toward the teleological. Frankly, I had to refresh my memory of the terms - I haven't used them in about 40 years, but the concepts are crystal clear.