Page 2 of 4

Re: Enforced abortion/euthanasia

Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:16 pm
by Keefy
However if a secular society votes that abortion is legal, I'm all for it. If it votes abortion is illegal, I'm all for it, yet I disagree. Either way it has no effect on me personally.
But it does affect your personally. When will society decide that its legally ok to end your life? Do you have any disabilities or defects? What about if you contracted a disease or something else happens that means society at large believes that it is OK to terminate you. Would you still be in agreement then?

If you follow laws that allow abortion and euthanasia to their natural conclusion you end up in a situation where people that are physically/mentally disabled, blind, old, addicted to subtances, unitelligent etc. can be legally killed in order to maintain the good of the society. Maybe you will not be affected by this, but your children/grandchildren will.

Would you agree if society voted for a law that allowed the genocide of a certain race or creed? If not, then when would you draw the line?
A law legalizing abortion hardly forces any person into the act of aborting a fetus.
No it doesn't but as Christians we should oppose it and lobby the government to change it.

Re: Enforced abortion/euthanasia

Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:40 pm
by BavarianWheels
Keefy wrote:
However if a secular society votes that abortion is legal, I'm all for it. If it votes abortion is illegal, I'm all for it, yet I disagree. Either way it has no effect on me personally.
But it does affect your personally.
No...it doesn't.
Keefy wrote:When will society decide that its legally ok to end your life? Do you have any disabilities or defects? What about if you contracted a disease or something else happens that means society at large believes that it is OK to terminate you. Would you still be in agreement then?
Society has already made it illegal to murder already born humans. It's farfetched that society will make such laws. Let's try and remain in the realm of plausible scenarios.
Keefy wrote:If you follow laws that allow abortion and euthanasia to their natural conclusion you end up in a situation where people that are physically/mentally disabled, blind, old, addicted to subtances, unitelligent etc. can be legally killed in order to maintain the good of the society.
Abortion is between a mother, her unborn child and her God. Euthanasia is between one person and his/her God. Murder of anyone "for the good" of society is again not even plausible (unless you're talking about capital punishment)
Keefy wrote:Maybe you will not be affected by this, but your children/grandchildren will.
If it's not plausible, chances are they will not. Even if they are, I'll probably be dead by then anyway. The dead know nothing.
keefy wrote:Would you agree if society voted for a law that allowed the genocide of a certain race or creed? If not, then when would you draw the line?
If society voted, all I could do is disagree. What kind of a question is this?
Keefy wrote:
BavarianWheels wrote:A law legalizing abortion hardly forces any person into the act of aborting a fetus.
No it doesn't but as Christians we should oppose it and lobby the government to change it.
Why not oppose it and instead of making it illegal, spend our time better by "lobbying" for Christians to teach their children the right things to do. Seems to me THAT would make more sense than simply making an already widely used practice, illegal.
.
.

Re: Enforced abortion/euthanasia

Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:00 pm
by Keefy
At one time it would have been considered implausible that a modern european country would allow the mass genocide of a religious nation. Murder for the 'good of the country' has occured in multiple places over the course of even just the last 100 years, and very recently in places like Tibet and Zimbabwe, so it is a very real and plausible threat.


keefy wrote:Would you agree if society voted for a law that allowed the genocide of a certain race or creed? If not, then when would you draw the line?


If society voted, all I could do is disagree. What kind of a question is this?

I asked this because earlier you said that you would be 'all for it' regardless of which way society voted so I was interested to understand when you would not be.

Re: Enforced abortion/euthanasia

Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:21 pm
by BavarianWheels
Keefy wrote:
BavarianWheels wrote:
Keefy wrote:Would you agree if society voted for a law that allowed the genocide of a certain race or creed? If not, then when would you draw the line?
If society voted, all I could do is disagree. What kind of a question is this?
I asked this because earlier you said that you would be 'all for it' regardless of which way society voted so I was interested to understand when you would not be.
When would I not be for abortion? I'm not FOR abortion, but I'm against putting the blanket of illegal on it.
.
.

Re: Enforced abortion/euthanasia

Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:27 pm
by waynepii
Bavarian, IF abortion is the taking of human life, it should be outlawed. People who use the argument "Well, I am pro-choice, but I don't like abortions (and I wouldn't have one myself)" are not thinking well, using good arguments. IF abortion is killing a human life, essentially they are sayignt that they are okay with somebody else killing a human. I find the argument, at the least, absurd, and, at the worst, atrocious. It's poor thinking like this that has led us down the political correctness culture. "Well, I wouldn't do such and such, but we should let others do so". Abortion is killing a human life.

And to even say that God is pro-choice?! That is about as foolish a statement as I have ver heard. God may allow murders to happen. That does NOT allow us to abdigate our respoensibility as a nation that examines what SHOULD and SHOULD NOT happen to influence our laws. Just because God does not reach down and stop every murder from happening does not allow us to do the same!!
What does the bible say about abortion?

Re: Enforced abortion/euthanasia

Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:31 pm
by Keefy
BW, do you believe that God loves you and thinks that you are precious and worth saving?

Re: Enforced abortion/euthanasia

Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:17 pm
by BavarianWheels
Keefy wrote:BW, do you believe that God loves you and thinks that you are precious and worth saving?
Yes. Is your next question whether I believe the life of the unborn is precious and worth saving? If it is...then, Yes.

Abortion is deep and VERY personal whereas plain ole "gang murder" is just an act of hate. I'm sure most women/girls that choose to abort do not abort out of hate for the child, but rather guilt and/or shame that they cannot get passed.
.
.

Re: Enforced abortion/euthanasia

Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:39 pm
by waynepii
waynepii wrote:
Bavarian, IF abortion is the taking of human life, it should be outlawed. People who use the argument "Well, I am pro-choice, but I don't like abortions (and I wouldn't have one myself)" are not thinking well, using good arguments. IF abortion is killing a human life, essentially they are sayignt that they are okay with somebody else killing a human. I find the argument, at the least, absurd, and, at the worst, atrocious. It's poor thinking like this that has led us down the political correctness culture. "Well, I wouldn't do such and such, but we should let others do so". Abortion is killing a human life.

And to even say that God is pro-choice?! That is about as foolish a statement as I have ver heard. God may allow murders to happen. That does NOT allow us to abdigate our respoensibility as a nation that examines what SHOULD and SHOULD NOT happen to influence our laws. Just because God does not reach down and stop every murder from happening does not allow us to do the same!!
What does the bible say about abortion?
I'm still trying to catch up - I see Rich has a page on this. I'll cogitate on http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/abort.html and see if it answers my question.

Re: Enforced abortion/euthanasia

Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:18 pm
by waynepii
Well, to me Rich's premiss seems a bit weak.

Not surprisingly, the Bible doesn't address abortion directly - the Bible predates the technology to abort a fetus by a few millenia.

The following are some excepts from Rich's "The Bible and Abortion" page...
Jesus demonstrated the love of God for children often during His ministry. In one passage, Jesus took a child to him and sat with him. He said, "See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you, that their angels in heaven continually behold the face of My Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 18:10).
As do most people. Many women who have had an abortion did so because of circumstances which others may not understand ur agree with, but they still love children. Sure, some abortions occur for convenience, or vanity, or shame, or ... but many are not.
Jesus tells us not to despise or look down upon the least powerful and significant (by human standards) of humans. It is ironic that the most helpless humans are those inside the womb. Of all the risks that we must face in our lives, the most dangerous place we can be is in the womb, since fully one third of all human babies are aborted in this nation - over one million every year. Greater than 98% of all abortions are done for non-medical reasons.
How many babies are miscarried due to natural causes, lack of prenatal care, malnutrition of the mother, etc, etc, -- worldwide?
The law specifically addresses the issue of taking the life of a fetus in the book of Exodus:

"And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide.
Doesn't that say the penalty is left up to secular authority?
But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life." (Exodus 21:22-23)
Injury to the combatants is more serious than destruction of the fetus? :esurprised: :econfused:

Reading further ...
Therefore, the law tells us that a man who induces an abortion or miscarriage is to be punished, indicating that God values life before birth.
But doesn't Exodus 21:22-23 seem to say the punishment is to be by secular authority?
A verse from Hosea says that abortion is a punishment for sin, indicating God views it as bad.
The referenced verse is Hosea 9:14 ...
Give them, O LORD-- what wilt Thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.
Isn't the prescribed punishment miscarriage (effectively caused by God), not abortion (caused by man)
Likewise, God expressed His disgust for the Ammonites, who "ripped open the pregnant women of Gilead".
Who wouldn't be disgusted at "ripping open" anyone, whether male or female, pregnant or not?

And further still ...
The Bible tells us God is involved in our creation from the womb:

"Did not He who made me in the womb make him, And the same one fashion us in the womb? (Job 31:15)

Yet Thou art He who didst bring me forth from the womb; Thou didst make me trust when upon my mother's breasts. Upon Thee I was cast from birth; Thou hast been my God from my mother's womb. (Psalms 22:9-10)

For Thou didst form my inward parts; Thou didst weave me in my mother's womb. I will give thanks to Thee, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Thy works, And my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from Thee, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth. Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Thy book they were all written, The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. (Psalms 139:13-16)

Thus says the LORD who made you And formed you from the womb, who will help you, `Do not fear, O Jacob My servant; And you Jeshurun whom I have chosen. (Isaiah 44:2)

Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, And spreading out the earth all alone, (Isaiah 44:24)
We know life begins sometime before the baby leaves the womb (at birth), but I fail to see any guidance as to when it begins.

Please note -- I am not saying that Rich is wrong, but IMO his "The Bible and Abortion" page fails to make a "The Biblical Basis for a Prolife Position". What am I missing? :econfused:

Without strong Biblical support, doesn't abortion come down to an individual's moral "compass" and their view of when a fetus transitions from being part of the mother and becomes another person in its own right?

Re: Enforced abortion/euthanasia

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:43 am
by Kurieuo
waynepii wrote:Well, to me Rich's premiss seems a bit weak.

Not surprisingly, the Bible doesn't address abortion directly - the Bible predates the technology to abort a fetus by a few millenia.
Actually it does. In Exodus 21:22 (http://www.errantskeptics.org/Exodus2122.htm).

Furthermore, the Bible is not needed. Biologically it is clear that human life begins at conception (what other type of creature is conceived by humans?). Therefore if you believe all human life deserves inherent rights... Blacks were once not deemed human, as were the Jews by Nazis. We should use science to determine human life rather than buy into propaganda of those who dabble in rheteroical arguments and profit from devaluing and destroying a particular group of human beings.

I recommend strolling over to http://www.abort73.com/ and read some of the responses to arguments perpetrated for abortion, that is unless you would to prefer to remain in bliss. A slideshow that I'd also recommend is http://www.swordandspirit.com/LIBRARY/P ... ofetus.ppt.
Bavarian wrote:Abortion is deep and VERY personal whereas plain ole "gang murder" is just an act of hate.
Sorry Bavarian. But you are speaking complete and utter garbage. Abortion is hate plain and simple. Killing any innocent human life is. Ignorance is no excuse and I'm glad God will one day stand judge on the side of all those innocent babies who have no voice, but were tortured and ripped apart or had their skulls jabbed with scissors and brains sucked out when being partially born.
Bavarian wrote:When would I not be for abortion? I'm not FOR abortion, but I'm against putting the blanket of illegal on it.
Then you condone the murder of innocent human life.

Cheers, K

Re: Enforced abortion/euthanasia

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:45 pm
by BavarianWheels
.
.
Since I received a board warning...I have no way of knowing how to answer or if to answer yet.
I didn't realize I was in that kind of danger for having this opinion on the matter.
.
.

Re: Enforced abortion/euthanasia

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 6:56 pm
by Cross.eyed
zoegirl wrote:Why don't you think it is in the board rules?

There are two issues that are very important, one is stopping treatment and the other is deliberate cause of death. I can completely understand deciding to refuse any more chemo, undergo hospice care, and refusal of feeding tube, etc. I have also seen my grandparents death and understand that decision.

I think, however, we are sliding down an awful slope when we switch to assisted suicide. Who? When? At what point?

More and more I am seeing the genius of George Orwell's book 1984. At what point are we going to see the government control these issues? We already are seeing judges decide feeding tube issues. Currently there is still a moral outrage over assisted suicide. But when will this become complacency?

What it seems like is that society is becoming more and more comfortable with euthanasia because we have somehow developed this idea that becase we are lessening the severity of dying, this somehow makes death less horrifying. Death will always be awful. It's our condition as humans under sin.

It's death itself that should always grieve us, not just the misery of dying.

Bavarian, IF abortion is the taking of human life, it should be outlawed. People who use the argument "Well, I am pro-choice, but I don't like abortions (and I wouldn't have one myself)" are not thinking well, using good arguments. IF abortion is killing a human life, essentially they are sayignt that they are okay with somebody else killing a human. I find the argument, at the least, absurd, and, at the worst, atrocious. It's poor thinking like this that has led us down the political correctness culture. "Well, I wouldn't do such and such, but we should let others do so". Abortion is killing a human life.

And to even say that God is pro-choice?! That is about as foolish a statement as I have ver heard. God may allow murders to happen. That does NOT allow us to abdigate our respoensibility as a nation that examines what SHOULD and SHOULD NOT happen to influence our laws. Just because God does not reach down and stop every murder from happening does not allow us to do the same!!

:shakehead:
:clap: :amen:

Re: Enforced abortion/euthanasia

Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:08 pm
by BavarianWheels
.
.
I'm being told on another thread that we are no longer under law...and if murder is part of that law that we are no longer under, then...??

What does this say about God's thinking on murder, be it abortion or otherwise?
.
.

Re: Enforced abortion/euthanasia

Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:21 am
by Kurieuo
BavarianWheels wrote:.
.
I'm being told on another thread that we are no longer under law...and if murder is part of that law that we are no longer under, then...??

What does this say about God's thinking on murder, be it abortion or otherwise?
.
.
Amazing. You are now using the logic of someone else to justify murder and try get abortion off the hook.

Re: Enforced abortion/euthanasia

Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:28 am
by Keefy
The law, including the 10 commandments was given to the Jews by God to show them his character and how he wanted his people to behave. We no longer need the law as Jesus fulfilled all of it - indeed the law was a foreshadowing of Jesus. The law was to point the way to God's character that became revealed in the flesh of Jesus. But Jesus came and no-one recognised him because the Jews loved the law that God had given them instead of God himself.

If you give your life to Jesus and live with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, you find that the laws and character of God become written on your very heart, so that you live to obey God and line-up with his character. Not because you have a law to tell you how to do this, but because your heart, led by the Spirit, shows you how to do this. The 10 commandments still point the way to God, but we would know them even if we did not have them written down. The Holy Spirit would testify to the truth of them.

Regarding the sabbath: The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. The day of rest (sabbath) was intended to show us how to live a life of rest and was again meant as a foreshadowing of the rest that Jesus would bring once he fulfilled the law. That sabbath rest is available 24/7, 100% of the time if we choose to enter into it. It is not a day to keep holy but a rest (inner peace) that we can enjoy whenever we wish. You can choose to spend a day each week observing this if you wish but it is unnecessary. In my eyes it means that you have not recognised what Jesus did on the cross and still consider that somehow something we do as humans can add to the cross of Christ. If you argue that God wants us to obey the 10 commandments, then by giving yourself to Christ each day and living a life led by the Spirit you are obeying the 4th commandment, because you are living in the sabbath rest that God promised and fulfilled in Jesus.