Evidence for God from Science

jlay wrote:Believers, does throwing numerous scriptures at someone who doesn't beleive them really do any good?


rstrats
Belief is really just a response. You can not respond to God if He is not pursuing you. I kind of understand what you are saying about choice. I'm just not sure you are grasping the Christian notion of choice. When you taste something you don't chose whether or not you like the taste. You like it or you don't. However many people choose not to eat things that are bad for them even though they like the flavor. And vice versa.

The fact that you would ask the question tells me, you are either desiring to understand how to respond or confused about what it means to beleive. The 3rd option is that you are being antagonistic and I don't think that is the case. If it is, then there is no use in answering because you can not seek/choose/respond God with a proud heart. "God resist the proud and gives grace to the humble."

If you were drowing in the middle of the ocean and someone threw you a life preserver, would you grab it?

Good choice. you could say, that you really had no choice. The consequences being so certain, you would lunge for preserver without sontemplating, "should I grab it, or not?" It is obvious by your inquiry that you do not know what is being offered, and why you need it.

My question is, do you know why you need a savior?
I look forward to your response.

I was never one for metaphors but wow jlay, if there were any that come close to hitting the proverbial nail on the head it would be those you posted. Great post my friend.

I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have and I would like to be able to do that

Sorry, I should have included this in my last post.

I would say that choices are a product (fruit) of what we beleive.

Paul is a good example. When he was struck down on the road to Damascus, there really wasn't any choice about whether Jesus was who he said he was. But, did you ever consider that Paul could have turned back towards Jerusalem, blind and lost? He had a choice.

Even though I believe, there are always occassions that my beliefs are on the hot seat, and my choices are a reflection of my faith or lack thereof. There were plenty of people who witnessed Jesus' miracles and chose not to follow.

"Come follow me." Response.

jlay,

re: “The fact that you would ask the question tells me, you are either desiring to understand how to respond, or confused about what it means to believe.”



I don't know what you are referring to with regard to “desiring to understand how to respond”, but I definitely am not confused about what it means to believe. To believe is to be convinced - without doubt - that someone or something does or doesn't exist, e.g. leprechauns, or that a certain proposition is or isn't true, e.g. that cause and effect has always been required and in force.


re: “The 3rd option is that you are being antagonistic...”

I am being dead serious. If it is possible to consciously CHOOSE to believe things, then I really - let me repeat - really want to learn how it is done. Heck, even if it can't be explained, I would be happy just to see someone demonstrate their ability to do it. But so far no one has done what I requested in my OP so I continue to think that it is not possible.


re: “My question is, do you know why you need a savior? “

This seems like a question for another topic. I don't know why you are asking it here as I don't see what it has to do with my query.

jlay,

re: “I would say that choices are a product (fruit) of what we believe.”

Having the ability to choose to take or not to take certain actions that a previously engendered belief may require I agree with.


re: “But, did you ever consider that Paul could have turned back towards Jerusalem, blind and lost? He had a choice. “

I agree that he could have taken the action of refusing to go into the city. I'm not sure what your point is, though?

rstrats wrote:I am being dead serious. If it is possible to consciously CHOOSE to believe things, then I really - let me repeat - really want to learn how it is done. Heck, even if it can't be explained, I would be happy just to see someone demonstrate their ability to do it. But so far no one has done what I requested in my OP so I continue to think that it is not possible.

If no conscious will is involved in believing then what is the point of posting here? Who are you trying to convince?

Kurieuo,

re: “If no conscious will is involved in believing then what is the point of posting here? Who are you trying to convince?”


I think if you would set aside a couple of moments to read my OP that you might have your answer.

rstrats wrote:I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have and I would like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief that it is possible to become a more compassionate person.

This is an idea, or ideal, to strive after. It is not a belief.

Since many on these boards seem to say that they can do just that, I wonder if someone who thinks that way might be able to share how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to make your lack of belief in something instantaneously change to belief?

For many, it is simply knowing enough about the faith and deciding that it is something that one can "believe" in. Have faith in. A number of people have said this, but you do not want to accept it. According to the Christian faith, it involves the will of God as well; did you want to discuss this?

Please give examples of how you have come to believe in something, which you bring up in the top quote. You say you haven't consciously chosen to believe in something, yet you have beliefs. Can you give examples? You say that we're not understanding you, so please explain more so that we may understand.

What do you do that would allow you to say: “Okay, I have obtained information about “X” and while I still do not believe that “X” exists, I am going to CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that “X” exists and - poof - I now believe that “X” exists?

But in your example here you already said that X doesn't exist. You've already made up your mind, so why would you expect then to believe? It doesn't make any sense. From my experience, people who come to believe in Jesus are at least somewhat open-minded about it; they're not sure, but they haven't made the choice not to believe.

I don't think that it can be done, but if it can I would really like to know how.

Muslims make a good example, I guess. Many who find inconsistencies in their faith start searching. They read the bible, they have prayer answered, they come to believe. What made them believe? They searched and were willing to find out. To say that Jesus doesn't exist first, like in your example of "X" above, is already throwing out the possibility of belief.

Rstrats,

YOu keep throwing around choosing to believe as if it is as simple as throwing a switch on the wall. One moment I am skeptical of the existence of leprechauns and then next I *choose* t believe. As if that somehow that explains our decision to palce our fatih in Jesus, HIs identify, His actions, and HIs deity.


Given the importance placed upon the need for evidence in our society, for instance, in a scientific study or forensic evidence, there is a place for examining the historical evidence for the existence of JEsus, the philosophical arguements (evidence) for the existence of God, the experiential evidence of us and those around us and of circumstances around us, and the eivdence within our hearts. I don't think we can simply switch somthing in our brains and automatically believe something when we haven't been convinced. At least, I don't.

We choose to believe as a conscious decision that comes because a set of ideas makes sense. YOu can think of the CSI shows where the evidence comes together and reveals the crime and the suspect, you can think of the peices of the jigsaw puzzle that come together and we see the whole, or even the cool 3-D pictures that don't immediately ocme in to focus. If you don't see it, it can be frustrating when all those around you claim that there is indeed a picture of a wolf howling at the moon (I remember that was the first one I saw!). NOw based upon their vehemence you might choose to continue to search or even place your assurance that there *is* something but I won't be completely convinced until you see it yourself.

But I can understand Jac's idea about consciously rejecting this set of ideas....because it's not just a set of ideas but also a relationship with God. This is not just about choosing to beleive in the existence of God, but the acceptance of our realtionship status with God and needing a savior. And that belief rests in us understanding and being frsutrated by our condition.

rstrats wrote:Kurieuo,

re: “If no conscious will is involved in believing then what is the point of posting here? Who are you trying to convince?”


I think if you would set aside a couple of moments to read my OP that you might have your answer.

I read your original OP (which was quite strawmanish and generalised mind you), but that was not the target of my questions. I am simply applying your rationale, which appears to be it is "not possible to consciously CHOOSE to believe things", to a different topic.

It seems you are trying to convince many here that one can not choose to believe something. How are you going to achieve convincing people if they are unable to choose to believe you

cslewislover,

re: “This is an idea, or ideal, to strive after. It is not a belief. “

Yes, being more compassionate of course is not a belief. But for the purpose of this topic I am not trying to learn how to be more compassionate. I am trying to learn how to consciously CHOOSE to believe things, and merely used being more compassionate as an example of something that I would like to believe was possible for me to do.


re: “ According to the Christian faith, it involves the will of God as well; did you want to discuss this? “

Perhaps under another topic.


re: “Please give examples of how you have come to believe in something...”

I would guess that my beliefs have most likely been caused by a process occurring in my subconscious mind due to an exposure to stimuli, such as literature, lectures, media, conversation, reflection, etc.


re: “ Can you give examples? “

A few would be: That the print and broadcast media is mostly liberal, that the earth orbits the sun, that the Ford Ranger is more reliable than the Chevy S10, that chili shouldn't have beans in it, that my dad loves me, that leprechauns do not exist, that scripture doesn't teach eternal torment, that my car will start the next time I turn the key, that doctrine outside of scripture is invalid, that U.S. border security should be improved, that beliefs can not be consciously CHOSEN.


re: “But in your example here you already said that X doesn't exist.”

No, the example said that the person doesn't have a belief that “X” exists.

Kurieuo,

re: “I read your original OP (which was quite strawmanish...”

I wonder if you might point out where I misrepresented or exaggerated anyone's intent in the OP?


re: “...and generalised...”

Yes, I am referring to the conscious CHOOSING of beliefs in general and not just limiting it to religious matters.


re” It seems you are trying to convince many here that one can not choose to believe something.”


You need to read the OP again, especially the last line. While it is true that I don't think it is possible to consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I am not trying to convince anyone of that. If it can be done I would like to see it demonstrated and explained. And since a number of people in these forums have indicated that they CAN consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I started this topic with the hope of seeing it done and learning how. So far no one has done that.

Ok, I am beginning to see more clearly now your position, and it runs much deeper than simply choosing to believe (correct me if I'm wrong).

How is it possible for anyone to prove to you that they can choose to believe something if you adhere to determinism? One can not even choose to do something on the deterministic view. Libertarian beliefs are not in any sense on the table of options whether choosing to believe or perform an action. After all, we are just responding to stimuli.

Given determinism, even if a person consciously chose to believe something, this does not mean that they themselves really did choose to believe. Their "consciousness", if comprised of only a physical substance, could ultimately still be chemicals just reacting to various stimuli. So answering your question seems quite pointless given the hidden premises which underpin it. If determinism is true, it is hard to picture "I" as anything more than an illusion; "I" can not CHOOSE to believe anything for "I" do not really exist. There is an identity crisis if determinism is true and "we" are just the product of chemicals and causality.

A better question I think is why should we think determinism is true. I think it is intuitively obvious that such is not the case given we quite naturally believe we are in control of our lives and actions (at least to some degree), and as such believe in justice and making people accountable for decisions they make. Someone who sexually abuses a child is responsible for their actions and ought to be punished accordingly. They could have chosen otherwise.

rstrats wrote:You need to read the OP again, especially the last line. While it is true that I don't think it is possible to consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I am not trying to convince anyone of that. If it can be done I would like to see it demonstrated and explained. And since a number of people in these forums have indicated that they CAN consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I started this topic with the hope of seeing it done and learning how. So far no one has done that.

Thanks for clarifying that convincing others here to see things your way had no part.

I now understand your intentions here are only noble in that you are just seeking understanding without any further motifs of pushing a particular belief you appear quite decided on.

Kurieuo,

What are your winking smilies intended to mean?

Sorry, I just remember my choice quite well.

When I encountered God I had a choice to make. Respond, or not respond. I can still remember the internal struggle going on. The flesh vs. the will. Knowing what I should do, weighted against the things that would keep me from choosing it. Embarrassment, fear of the unknown, pride. praise be to God that I responded and chose the one who had chosen me.

Is is no wonder so many people are so far from God. The God of the universe has been passionately pursuing them, and they have chosen over and over to ignore His calls.

[quote][that scripture doesn't teach eternal torment/quote]
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Dan. 12:3