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Re: Repentance

Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 6:40 pm
by TallMan
Repentance isn't just being sorry, it's changing heart & mind to fit in with what God is saying to you.

After the gentiles received God's Spirit in Acts 10, the apostles said:-
"Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life" (Acts 11:14)

The reason many church-goers never change is because they are not shown this reason to repent.
The preachers are no better than they are.

Re: Repentance

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:42 pm
by B. W.
Thanks eveyone!

Great responses :clap:

I'll look into these and respond and add a bit more a little later. I am a bit tired and been resonding to other threads for last few hours...

So far, everyone receives an "A" :)
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Re: Repentance

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:33 am
by B. W.
Back to the discussion on Repentance

Often, repentance is viewed as a dreary work Christians engage in week after week. People go about the acts and words of repenting but do they ever really repent; thus, this is how repentance gets a bad rap and is often ignored or missunderstood. Repentance basically means in both Hebrew and Greek: a change of mind; to turn around and back toward God; a reversal of decision, etc...

So now the question comes: How does one repent? Is it an act contrition, human work, confession, or something else we maybe missing?

So what I am asking for us to look into is this: Is repenting just a dreary work we do week after week or does repenting involve true liberation? How does one really repent?

Tallman and Jlay bring up these excellent points:
TallMan wrote: Repentance isn't just being sorry, it's changing heart & mind to fit in with what God is saying to you. After the gentiles received God's Spirit in Acts 10, the apostles said: "Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life" (Acts 11:14)

The reason many church-goers never change is because they are not shown this reason to repent. The preachers are no better than they are.
jlay wrote:…(Repentance involves)…A forsaking of an old way to embrace a new way. Have you ever considered that when Paul was struck blind he could have saddled up blind and stubborn and returned to Jerusalem? Instead he responded to Christ, in essence repenting.

When Paul speaks of this new man he says do not BE conformed any longer to the pattern of this world, but BE transformed by the renewing of your mind. It is a state of mind. A state of response to something God has, and is already doing. Holiness is not an accomplishment of man, but a result of responding to the provision of God.
I find that there is a need to show Christians how to repent and live realistically holy lives before God. As Jlay brings out: Repentance involves being transformed by the renewing of our minds as a response to something God has, and is already doing.

Sadly, what I found true in many church circles (not all but seems the majority to me) is that repentance is taught as an accomplishment of man and not as a result of responding to the provision of God.

With this in mind, how does one really repent and find the freedom Christ Jesus speaks of in John 8:31-36, and what is the provision God provides that enables true liberating repentance? How do we have this work in our lives?
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Re: Repentance

Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:04 pm
by cslewislover
I just wanted to point out an article, a fairly short one, on repentance. "Three Ways to Bring About Repentance: Luther, Wesley, and Moody offer different means to guide reluctant people to repent."
Lyle Dorsett (Christianity Today 2002)

http://www.christianitytoday.com/outrea ... tance.html

Re: Repentance

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:43 am
by ageofknowledge
"So what I am asking for us to look into is this: Is repenting just a dreary work we do week after week or does repenting involve true liberation? How does one really repent?"

When it comes to hardwired things like single Christian males and masterbation repentance certainly can be ongoing for many/most until they find a suitable partner to marry or in rare cases find a peace in celibacy in that regard. However, when it comes to turning away from alcohol or marijuana I've noticed that when a person gets delivered from the Lord and purposes to following Christ (new believer or backslidden believer rededicating for instance) they live in sobriety and that's real repentance because they simply don't engage in the activity any longer.

But looking at the other point BW, almost two generations have grown up heavily indoctrinated by the modern liberal public education system to believe that everything is subjective. A God of one's imagination is encouraged over the one true God. In this environment, people simply don't see a need to repent. God is loving and will accept them for after all, they aren't as bad as <fill in the blank>. It's deception allright but I think that's the reason. The culture changed.

Re: Repentance

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:46 am
by ageofknowledge
cslewislover wrote:I just wanted to point out an article, a fairly short one, on repentance. "Three Ways to Bring About Repentance: Luther, Wesley, and Moody offer different means to guide reluctant people to repent."
Lyle Dorsett (Christianity Today 2002)

http://www.christianitytoday.com/outrea ... tance.html
What do you guys think of The Way of the Master approach to bringing people to repentance?

Re: Repentance

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:03 am
by jlay
What do you guys think of The Way of the Master approach to bringing people to repentance?
Showing a sinner the depravity of his own soul compared to the uncompromising holiness of God is one thing that will no doubt renew the mind. As Paul said, "by the law is the knowledge of sin." I've studied in depth the way of the master approach. Their view is that, "the law can lead a man to the cross and no further."

True repentance can not happen apart from the work of God. The Way of the Master reveals the error of the human mind, which the bible testifies to. That each man will proclaim his own goodness, and that all a man's ways are just in his own eyes. One form of repentence is coming to the knowledge that the "heart is desperately wicked." So, one changes their mind from trying to justify themselves, realizing that they are a wicked sinner before a holy, righteous and just God. When Jonah preached to Ninevah, he brought them into the knowledge of their sin, and the knowledge of how God saw their sin. They would not have been able to repent, unless God moved and sent a prophet to enligthen the eyes of their understanding. Ninevah responded. On the day of Pentecost, 3,000 responded. They changed their minds, forsaking an old way to embrace a new.

So what can the sinner "DO"? Respond. That's it. Respond, respond, respond. Can we love God? Only in response to the reality that He loved us first. He loved, He acted, He moved, He thrust Himself off His throne, and into the flesh of man, to live and die for our sins. We can only respond to it.

The Law is our schoolmaster. It can not save us, only reveal to us the nature of ourselves and the nature of God's glorious standard, of which we have all fallen short. (Romans 3:23) When we can examine ourselves in the mirror of God's law we can then know what it is we need to repent of. We can see our hopeless condition. Who wouldn't want to repent of hopelessness? We can then embrace everything that comes in the provision of the cross. Mercy. Grace. Forgiveness. Sanctification. And a renewed mind that is no longer a slave to sin. We have tasted what is good. We have experienced the righteousness of God. And now righteousness is our new master. And God provides everything we need to live a holy life. God wants us to embrace the cross. That is response. That is repentence.

So repentence is not one thing that can be summed up as an act that a Christian does. It is a response to the working of God in a person's life. There are people who know they are wicked. Their sin literally eats at them, and is destoying them. They might even have some awareness of who Jesus is. But they haven't said yes to Him. They haven't said "yes" to what God has done for them. If that person then changes their mind and says yes to the work of God, what have they just done?
I find that there is a need to show Christians how to repent and live realistically holy lives before God.

And this is really where the struggle comes. This is where many slip back into Phariseism, and putting a burden on people they can not carry. Christ was holy. His entire life was one that was lived above sin. That doesn't mean that He didn't need His diaper changed as a child. That doesn't mean He always spoke fluent Aramaic and Greek right out of the crib. Jesus was a human and dealt with human limitations. That is why, "Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men."

Through Christ and the Holy Spirit, God has granted us the ability to live above sin. You will still have your human limitations. You will get tired, you will get frustrated, you will still stump your toe. Your service will not be perfect. But you can live above sin, which is what holiness is all about. And that is by living IN Christ. How was Christ obedient? Love. It all came down to love. He loved the Father. He wasn't just a great rule follower. he wasn't just born with super duper will power. He was a great lover of God. "He who has My commands and keeps them. It is He who loves Me.: John 14:21 Want to be holy? Love God. If all the commandments are fulfilled in love, then we need to be great lovers. (no pun intended)

Re: Repentance

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:25 am
by ageofknowledge
Excellent reply jlay. Though committed believers intent on pursuing Christ often have very holy lives, I don't think anyone has ever lived a pure sinless life after being saved though I've read that some Christians stoics came close.

Re: Repentance

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:00 am
by cslewislover
I was considering putting this article up yesterday since it seemed related to me (and I think it's great). I think others would to. Our regeneration, our growth, depends on the Holy Spirit (and our willingness to yield to Him), which is all a part of repentance. This article is another from Christianity Today (March 2003, Vol. 47, No. 3): http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/200 ... ml?start=1

Good Question: The Struggle to Love
"If the Holy Spirit is in us, why can't we love one another?"
David P. Gushee | posted 3/01/2003 12:00AM

If God is really in us in the form of the Holy Spirit, shouldn't it be easy to love one another?
—Margo Shelton, Victorville, California

There are two ways to approach this question. One would be to focus on the issue of love. The other would be to ask why it takes so much effort to live out any Christian moral obligation, whether love, or sexual fidelity, or economic generosity, or racial justice.

Let's place the question within a broader issue—historic Christian thinking about sanctification.

The most pessimistic stance, attributed to some strains of Lutheranism, is that the New Testament promises simply that God declares believers righteous on account of Jesus Christ (Rom. 3:21-26). In this view, our sinful condition is so profound that little if any actual moral progress can be expected in this life—indeed, the effort to make such progress actually draws us away from a trusting faith in Christ's atoning sacrifice on our behalf.

This view is untenable, however, because it fails to account for the hundreds of moral commands that the Bible does lay upon us, and the apparent expectation that we will at least attempt to obey them.

At the other end of the spectrum lies the Wesleyan doctrine of entire sanctification. According to this view, a total cleansing of sin from the heart through the Holy Spirit is available to believers (1 Thess. 5:23). As sin is purged from the heart, and the heart is instead filled with the Holy Spirit and love for God, dramatic moral change and real holiness become possible.

Thus some Christians have believed that the change could and should be so far-reaching that it is even possible to speak of moral perfection for the sanctified Christian. I find any use of the word perfection to describe Christian moral potential also untenable.

If in moral terms some Christians have expected too little of believers, and others have expected too much, what should Christians expect of themselves and of other believers?

A clue can be found in a statement that the sober-minded theologian Reinhold Niebuhr once offered. He said that the grace of God comes in two forms to the believer: pardon and power. God's grace comes as pardon in that we wretched sinners are forgiven of our many offenses. We are justified. But God's grace also comes as power for believers to live a new kind of life; that is, we can be sanctified.

The question rightly implies that the Bible does promise access to God's grace as power, and thus, during those times when we see so little evidence of such power in our lives, we are distressed.

But what we must take into account is the New Testament teaching that this power faces competing powers in the world and in ourselves.

The power of the Holy Spirit is indeed an extraordinary power. But in this life, we Christians do not get unhindered access to that power, or better, we struggle to get free of those other powers that limit our access to the full power of the Holy Spirit. In the classic Christian tradition, these other powers have been called the world, the flesh, and the Devil.

The "world" is God's good yet fallen creation, a cosmic and human order badly marred by sinful rebellion and presenting constant temptation, disappointment, and disorder (John 1:10; Rom. 3:19;

1 Cor. 3:19). The "flesh" is fallen human nature enslaved to sin and bent toward disobedience to God (Rom. 7; Gal. 5:16-26). The Devil is a personal being hostile to both God and humankind, and especially bent on seducing and tyrannizing the church (John 8:44; 2 Cor. 11:3-15; Rev. 12:13-17).

Why is it so hard to love? Because the power of the Holy Spirit competes in our very souls against these rebellious forces and sinful desires for our allegiance. The Holy Spirit, who lives in us, creates and then inflames in us a desire to do God's will—but not without opposition.

The good news is that this contest is unequal. God will ultimately prevail in the world, and in the yielded heart and life of the faithful Christian. The bad news is that it is still a contest, a fact we face every time we struggle to do what we know we should. That includes the challenge of loving one another.

David P. Gushee is Graves Associate Professor of Moral Philosophy and senior fellow of the Carl F. H. Henry Center for Christian Leadership at Union University in Jackson, Tennessee.

Re: Repentance

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:06 am
by BavarianWheels
jlay wrote:
What do you guys think of The Way of the Master approach to bringing people to repentance?
Showing a sinner the depravity of his own soul compared to the uncompromising holiness of God is one thing that will no doubt renew the mind. As Paul said, "by the law is the knowledge of sin." I've studied in depth the way of the master approach. Their view is that, "the law can lead a man to the cross and no further."

True repentance can not happen apart from the work of God. The Way of the Master reveals the error of the human mind, which the bible testifies to. That each man will proclaim his own goodness, and that all a man's ways are just in his own eyes. One form of repentence is coming to the knowledge that the "heart is desperately wicked." So, one changes their mind from trying to justify themselves, realizing that they are a wicked sinner before a holy, righteous and just God. When Jonah preached to Ninevah, he brought them into the knowledge of their sin, and the knowledge of how God saw their sin. They would not have been able to repent, unless God moved and sent a prophet to enligthen the eyes of their understanding. Ninevah responded. On the day of Pentecost, 3,000 responded. They changed their minds, forsaking an old way to embrace a new.

So what can the sinner "DO"? Respond. That's it. Respond, respond, respond. Can we love God? Only in response to the reality that He loved us first. He loved, He acted, He moved, He thrust Himself off His throne, and into the flesh of man, to live and die for our sins. We can only respond to it.

The Law is our schoolmaster. It can not save us, only reveal to us the nature of ourselves and the nature of God's glorious standard, of which we have all fallen short. (Romans 3:23) When we can examine ourselves in the mirror of God's law we can then know what it is we need to repent of. We can see our hopeless condition. Who wouldn't want to repent of hopelessness? We can then embrace everything that comes in the provision of the cross. Mercy. Grace. Forgiveness. Sanctification. And a renewed mind that is no longer a slave to sin. We have tasted what is good. We have experienced the righteousness of God. And now righteousness is our new master. And God provides everything we need to live a holy life. God wants us to embrace the cross. That is response. That is repentence.

So repentence is not one thing that can be summed up as an act that a Christian does. It is a response to the working of God in a person's life. There are people who know they are wicked. Their sin literally eats at them, and is destoying them. They might even have some awareness of who Jesus is. But they haven't said yes to Him. They haven't said "yes" to what God has done for them. If that person then changes their mind and says yes to the work of God, what have they just done?
I find that there is a need to show Christians how to repent and live realistically holy lives before God.

And this is really where the struggle comes. This is where many slip back into Phariseism, and putting a burden on people they can not carry. Christ was holy. His entire life was one that was lived above sin. That doesn't mean that He didn't need His diaper changed as a child. That doesn't mean He always spoke fluent Aramaic and Greek right out of the crib. Jesus was a human and dealt with human limitations. That is why, "Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men."

Through Christ and the Holy Spirit, God has granted us the ability to live above sin. You will still have your human limitations. You will get tired, you will get frustrated, you will still stump your toe. Your service will not be perfect. But you can live above sin, which is what holiness is all about. And that is by living IN Christ. How was Christ obedient? Love. It all came down to love. He loved the Father. He wasn't just a great rule follower. he wasn't just born with super duper will power. He was a great lover of God. "He who has My commands and keeps them. It is He who loves Me.: John 14:21 Want to be holy? Love God. If all the commandments are fulfilled in love, then we need to be great lovers. (no pun intended)
:clap: :amen: :clap:
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Re: Repentance

Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:35 pm
by B. W.
All these are fanastic points about repentence - so next question would be:

How does one realy repent?

By Law?

By Grace?
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Re: Repentance

Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:41 pm
by zoegirl
By grace

Re: Repentance

Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:15 pm
by Gman
B. W. wrote:All these are fanastic points about repentence - so next question would be:

How does one realy repent?

By Law?

By Grace?
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Ah, let me think about it... Hmmm. Ok, I'll take grace then too... :P

Re: Repentance

Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:59 am
by B. W.
I say by grace also :)

Let me clarify what I mean about the law and repentance:

Does trying to do the law prove that one repented?

In my opinion - The answer would be No.

Repentance involves something else…as brought out by the comments here. How can we sum up how too repent a bit better so we can understand correctly, how to repent?
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Re: Repentance

Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:57 am
by jlay
How can we sum up how too repent a bit better so we can understand correctly, how to repent?
Well this could get interesting. A how to book on repenting. Let's look at the bible for some guidance and I will also provide some examples.

Jonah was sent to Ninevah and told to preach against it. In other words their sin was against God, and they were to be told to turn from their ways or face destruction. Jonah preached repentance.

"He proclaimed: "Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned." 5 The Ninevites believed God. They declared a fast, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth.

6 When the news reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, took off his royal robes, covered himself with sackcloth and sat down in the dust. 7 Then he issued a proclamation in Nineveh:
"By the decree of the king and his nobles:
Do not let any man or beast, herd or flock, taste anything; do not let them eat or drink. 8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. 9 Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish."

10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened."


The first act of repentence was that the Ninevites BELIEVED. They repented/turned from unbelief, and responded with belief. The king and people accepted this message as truth and embraced it as such. 2ndly this change of mind produced a change of action. They fasted, they stopped their evil, and sincerely sought mercy. They turned from their evil and pursued God. It is interesting that if you are pursuing God in a matter, you just can't keep sinning. Amazing.

Sadly many today to not want to preach against evil as God commanded Jonah to do. They want to cuddle people into the Kingdom, and avoid dealing with the harsh realities of sin and God's uncompromising holiness. Is it any wonder we have so many lukewarm Christians today? I am not trying to minimize the love we are to show a sinner. But love has a firm side as well as a tender side.

A good friend of mine was saved in his 30s. He grew up in a secular home unfamiliar with any Christian upbringing. When he was saved he was rough around the edges to say the least. I have seen amazing changes in him over the six to seven years we have been friends. He possessed all kinds of music, t-shirts, movies, etc. that did not reflect a Christian lifestyle. He destroyed them all. This was a very visable outward sign of what God had done to His heart. The kindness of God had renewed his mind, and He was responding to this work of the Holy Spirit.

Repentence isn't a how to. It is a yes to. A yes to what God is impressing on the heart. That may be through the conscience, through His word, or through a messenger.

Take for example a person who thinks they are good. They don't think God is angry with their sin. They don't think their sins are all that bad. "Heck, everybody does it. Afterall, I haven't killed anyone." Through the Holy Spirit and the Word God begins to reveal to this person the utterly sinful nature of sin, and that they are dead in their trespasses. They repent of this notion that sin isn't a serious matter, and come to a new belief that they have a serious disease of the soul. They have repented/ changed their minds. They are now able, because of the kindness of God, to embrace the cross for all it is worth. Not because God was a form of life enhancement, or just another religion.