Are some things (some people) hopeless?

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waynepii
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Re: Are some things (some people) hopeless?

Post by waynepii »

Gman wrote:
waynepii wrote:That is what I am having trouble understanding. God leaves it up to us to believe in Him or not.
Yes, Wayne but He doesn't make robots either.. He gives us choices.
waynepii wrote:He also gave us an intellect by which we can understand our world (this is apparently unique among species). But He makes it difficult for our intellect to discern His existence.
Or is it that we are making it difficult? I don't think that we always have to "take-it-by-faith" in all things. He did give us intellect, and we should properly use it.

Consider Romans 1:20. "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

Here we have a verse that says that when we look at creation, we understand them to be the works of God. Now granted we do have other ideas how this world came about, that maybe true, but do we understand that to be ultimate truth? I wouldn't think so..

Also is it just an intellectual thing to understand the things of God? Or is it something else?
As our understanding of the world increases, many things that at one time seemed magical or the result of divine intervention are now considered to be "normal" - lightning, earthquakes, the weather, plagues, ...
waynepii wrote:We have a book (the Bible) written millenia ago which claims to be inspired by God, but was written, compiled, edited, translated, published, and interpreted by men. Said book "proves" its divine inspiration largely by prophecies of events that have undeniably occurred and miracles that were supposedly performed. But how can we be sure the "prophecies" were not written (or "tweaked" to fit) after the occurrence of the prophesied events and how can we be sure of what actually transpired that was interpreted as "miraculous"? After all, at one time, earthquakes, eclipses, and other perfectly normal events were considered "miracles".
It kind of goes back to these articles again...

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibletru.html
To be honest, I find most of the "fulfilled prophesies" less than compelling. For instance, consider items 50 and 51 ...
50 Zechariah 11:12 betrayed for thirty pieces of silver Matthew 26:14-15
51 Zechariah 11:13 betrayal money used to buy Potter's field Matthew 27:6-7
... which look promising, but examination of their context ...
Zechariah 11:4-14 wrote:4 This is what the LORD my God says: "Pasture the flock marked for slaughter. 5 Their buyers slaughter them and go unpunished. Those who sell them say, 'Praise the LORD, I am rich!' Their own shepherds do not spare them. 6 For I will no longer have pity on the people of the land," declares the LORD. "I will hand everyone over to his neighbor and his king. They will oppress the land, and I will not rescue them from their hands."

7 So I pastured the flock marked for slaughter, particularly the oppressed of the flock. Then I took two staffs and called one Favor and the other Union, and I pastured the flock. 8 In one month I got rid of the three shepherds.
The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them 9 and said, "I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another's flesh."

10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations. 11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word of the LORD.

12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.

13 And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"-the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter.

14 Then I broke my second staff called Union, breaking the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
... and the betrayal and who was betrayed are less than obvious, to say the least. Further, while I am sure there is some interpretation of this that sorta' kinda' lines up with betrayal of Jesus, it certainly is not clear or readily discernible.

Or item 71 ...
71 Psalm 22:17-18 soldiers gambled for His clothing Matthew 27:35-36, John 19:23, 24
... in context ...
Psalm 22 wrote:1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?

2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel.

4 In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.

5 They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.

7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:

8 "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.

10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.

13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.

14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.

17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.

18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.


19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.

20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.

21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.

23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

24 For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you will I fulfill my vows.

26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,

28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.

30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.

31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn—
for he has done it.
... it sounds more like the prayer of those doomed to death in a Roman style amphitheater (I know the time frame is wrong) than anything to do with Christ's crucifixion.

Why are the prophesies dealing with a single pivotal event (the crucifixion) spread through many unrelated verses? This makes the prophesies seem to be the result of combing the available tracts for any statements that seem to fit the desired result.

These prophesies seem a bit like Nostradamus - ambiguous predictions which will eventually come close enough to something that actually happens that they are deemed "a prophesy".
Even if the Bible was 100% faithful to its earliest form (and I don't think it is), that fact neither indicates that it is an accurate telling of what actually occurred, nor does it prove divine inspiration of the document.
Well we know for a fact that the Old Testament was written before the New Testament. And yet we have all these prophecies of Christ that was fulfilled in the NT.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/prophchr.html

We have a Prophecy of Christ saying that the temple would be destroyed Matthew 24:1-2. In 70 AD that was fulfilled when the Romans sacked the temple..

Scripture is pretty clear that it didn't come from man, although man may have penned it.
Possibly, IF we could be sure that Matthew 24 was written before 70AD. I'm sure you believe it to be a factual representation of some of Christ's teachings, but the evidence is far from conclusive.
2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

What I would say is this. I don't think the Bible has every single answer for you and I. But it does provide a framework in which to build our faith on. It may have been inspired by God, but will still need to seek God for wisdom and direction..
waynepii wrote:I was raised in a very religious family, went through Christian schools, and at one time was considering going into the clergy. But doubts began to seep in, largely because no one was able to give me compelling answers to relatively simple questions such as the above. I have been trolling both atheist and Christian websites looking for inspiration, and while I dislike the arrogance common on the atheist websites, they do make some very good and logical points.
Ok, and what logical points do they have? That man evolved by chance? I wouldn't hang my faith on this... I just wouldn't. Every man has some kind of faith. If it's not in God they simply channel it to something else. Like to yoga, mother nature, the stock market, or even baseball. We make Gods out of our occupation, people, or even things like cars.. What is wrong with making God as part of my faith?
Well something either existed for all time or came into existence out of nothing. The "something" might have been a few bazillion megatons of assorted matter or it might have been an all-powerful creature who could magically cause a few bazillion megatons to appear from nothing.

Life could have happened by chance from natural causes or it occurred from nothing at all (ie God is living isn't He?) and was passed on.

As improbable as the former hypotheses may be, to me they seem MUCH more likely than the latter hypotheses.

My own doubts began when I realized that "God made us" begged the question "where did God come from". As yet, no one has been able to provide a cogent answer.

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, I'm just trying to explain my doubts in hopes of resolving them one way or another.
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Gman
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Re: Are some things (some people) hopeless?

Post by Gman »

waynepii wrote: As our understanding of the world increases, many things that at one time seemed magical or the result of divine intervention are now considered to be "normal" - lightning, earthquakes, the weather, plagues, ...
Well it depends.. Not everything like lightning, earthquakes, the weather, plagues are considered acts of divine intervention. According to the Bible sometimes it's just circumstances or people making poor decisions.. Even today that maybe the case... Someone get's lung cancer and dies but then others blame God for the death. Could it be that they smoked all their life? Of course...
waynepii wrote:To be honest, I find most of the "fulfilled prophesies" less than compelling. For instance, consider items 50 and 51 ..50 Zechariah 11:12 betrayed for thirty pieces of silver Matthew 26:14-15
51 Zechariah 11:13 betrayal money used to buy Potter's field Matthew 27:6-7

... which look promising, but examination of their context ... 4 This is what the LORD my God says: "Pasture the flock marked for slaughter. 5 Their buyers slaughter them and go unpunished. Those who sell them say, 'Praise the LORD, I am rich!' Their own shepherds do not spare them. 6 For I will no longer have pity on the people of the land," declares the LORD. "I will hand everyone over to his neighbor and his king. They will oppress the land, and I will not rescue them from their hands."

7 So I pastured the flock marked for slaughter, particularly the oppressed of the flock. Then I took two staffs and called one Favor and the other Union, and I pastured the flock. 8 In one month I got rid of the three shepherds.
The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them 9 and said, "I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another's flesh."

10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations. 11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word of the LORD.

12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.

13 And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"-the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter.

14 Then I broke my second staff called Union, breaking the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.

... and the betrayal and who was betrayed are less than obvious, to say the least. Further, while I am sure there is some interpretation of this that sorta' kinda' lines up with betrayal of Jesus, it certainly is not clear or readily discernible.
Let's look at this closer.. Israel's appraisal of the True Shepherd's worth was 30 pieces of silver, the compensation price for a slave gored by an ox (Ex. 21:32). The choice of the slave price was probably intended as an insult to the Shepherd, worse than a direct refusal to pay Him any wage. Throwing this handsome price (an obvious use of irony) to the potter shows its trifling worth (the potter was one of the lowest of the laboring class). This prophecy was fulfilled in Judas' betrayal of Christ...
waynepii wrote:Or item 71

Psalm 22:17-18 soldiers gambled for His clothing Matthew 27:35-36, John 19:23, 24

... in context ... 1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?

2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel.

4 In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.

5 They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.

7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:

8 "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.

10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.

13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.

14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.

17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.

18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.


19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.

20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.

21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.

23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

24 For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you will I fulfill my vows.

26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,

28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.

30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.

31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn—
for he has done it.

... it sounds more like the prayer of those doomed to death in a Roman style amphitheater (I know the time frame is wrong) than anything to do with Christ's crucifixion.
These verses are the prophecies of King David.. Not just stories.. It seems to me that he hit it on the nail..
waynepii wrote:Why are the prophesies dealing with a single pivotal event (the crucifixion) spread through many unrelated verses? This makes the prophesies seem to be the result of combing the available tracts for any statements that seem to fit the desired result.

These prophesies seem a bit like Nostradamus - ambiguous predictions which will eventually come close enough to something that actually happens that they are deemed "a prophesy".
Well, according Christ, scripture in the old testament was written about him.. So it isn't just man interjecting his ideas..

Luke 24:44 "And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me."

Mark 9:12 "And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought."

Luke 24:46 "And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:"

John 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

John 5:46 "For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me."
waynepii wrote:Even if the Bible was 100% faithful to its earliest form (and I don't think it is), that fact neither indicates that it is an accurate telling of what actually occurred, nor does it prove divine inspiration of the document.
Really, and how do you know that?? You haven't convinced me otherwise..
waynepii wrote:Possibly, IF we could be sure that Matthew 24 was written before 70AD. I'm sure you believe it to be a factual representation of some of Christ's teachings, but the evidence is far from conclusive. ..
These are pretty well established dates for the gospels.. Even among the skeptics.

http://www.carm.org/christianity/bible/ ... o-wrote-it

Consider this too..

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... false.html
waynepii wrote:Well something either existed for all time or came into existence out of nothing. The "something" might have been a few bazillion megatons of assorted matter or it might have been an all-powerful creature who could magically cause a few bazillion megatons to appear from nothing.

Life could have happened by chance from natural causes or it occurred from nothing at all (ie God is living isn't He?) and was passed on.
Passed on by what? Either way, your claim is that life originated from a rock? This requires more faith than I have..
waynepii wrote:As improbable as the former hypotheses may be, to me they seem MUCH more likely than the latter hypotheses.

My own doubts began when I realized that "God made us" begged the question "where did God come from". As yet, no one has been able to provide a cogent answer.

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, I'm just trying to explain my doubts in hopes of resolving them one way or another.
That is already answered here.. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... d_god.html
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
WConn
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Re: Are some things (some people) hopeless?

Post by WConn »

Gman and Waynepii,

Good give and take. Waynepii, I give you credit for doing what the Bible essentially ask for, questioning it and looking for answers. I must admit I am not either smart enough or knowledgeable enough as yet to follow either of your thought processes.

From my point of view, man's writing of the Bible was either inspired by God or not inspired by God. That being said, I need reasons to believe that it was inspired by God and I am not convinced that is the case 100 percent of the time. Although I have been given some good answers to questions I have, such as why God would direct his soldiers to kill not only the men of a city but the women and children too, I still feel that perhaps man interjected his wishful thinking into this scenario. Does God expect us to believe all of those who say they are divinely inspired by him? How about the TV preachers, Tilton, Baker, Swaggert and the like who say one thing and do another? Should we believe them? I think not.

My current path is to try to determine when the prophecies were made, and when they were actually fulfilled. I can only take the timelines given by those who claim to know and compare them to the events I am studying. You know how we hear of people like Dixon and Casey making predictions and they come true? Well from my point of view, I seldom hear about Dixon's predictions until after they come true, rather hard to accept as clairvoyant if you ask me. Casey on the other hand seemed to have some rather impressive predictions but again, I have no first hand, direct knowledge of what he said, when he said it and the degree to which it came true. His prediction of the discovery of Atlantis fell somewhat short if you ask me.

In reality, when I look around and see what there is to see, when I observe all the forms of life we have here on earth, I have to ask myself if this is all by happenstance? The concept of an omnipotent being is somewhat beyond my ability to comprehend. As I have noted before, it doesn't appear that God wants us to just believe, but to investigate and arrive at a conclusion. I am told that if I am to believe, I will be given the ability to do so. As a reasonably educated, reasonably intelligent individual, I hope that ability comes soon.

I am concerned for some of my Christian friends though, one in particular who is fond of saying that, "Christians are not perfect, just forgiven." While she goes to church and
professes her belief's and faith in God, it appears that she does things which I have determined that God would frown upon. I am not trying to judge her, just apply that which I have learned thus far to her actions. If Hypocrisy is a sin, she continues to do so as do many others I know. That being said, I don't believe it is even close to possible for anyone to live their life as the Bible directs. One cannot possibly give every moment's thought to God in everything that is said and done.

Hang in there Waynepii, I wish you well.

W
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Re: Are some things (some people) hopeless?

Post by cslewislover »

jlay wrote: I appreciate Gman and Lewis fan helping to answer some of the intellectual questions you have regarding the Bible. However, we would all be remiss if we didn't address the spiritual things the Bible says about you and I.

You are at a 7. Start there. Do you want to know if this book applies directly to your life? Pray from that point. Could you say, "Lord, I confess I don't know everything. Reveal to me my need for you."
Jlay, don't assume that Gman and I have only discussed intellectual questions with Walt. I know I have discussed this spiritual aspect with Walt, with slightly different wording; I don't know about Gman.

Off topic, but the "lover" in my name is obviously not meant to be carnal. In song and verse, when it is said that Jesus is the lover of my soul, I know the carnal meaning is not the one meant (!). The 4th meaning of the word lover in my dictionary states: "One who is fond of or devoted to something." I am very fond of CS Lewis for his apologetical and evangelical work, his tremendous charity, and his fictional writings, with no carnality intended. The word "fan" conjures up screaming teens at a rock concert or people yelling at the TV during a football game, spilling chips and beer. I'm not a fan of CS Lewis, I'm a lover; the Lord is not a fan of my soul, buy my soul's lover. :heart: Best lover I ever had. ;)
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Re: Are some things (some people) hopeless?

Post by rodyshusband »

Jlay, I am trying my friend. I am one of those who needs to be sure about everything I do. At times I think I am sure only to find out later I was not, or perhaps it was
the situation.

I am constantly examining myself but I do not know if I am IN the faith.

Walt
I am never 100% sure about everything I do. I am limited. I do not have infinite knowledge of all things.
I often "step out in faith", doing things in faith, based on reason and logic.
I suppose I may be nothing more then a result of "time + matter + chance", but the evidence is stronger to the contrary.
I have many questions and often find answers I can comprehend; other times not.
“Christianity provides a unified answer for the whole of life.” -- Francis Schaeffer
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