Re: Are some things (some people) hopeless?
Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:10 pm
As our understanding of the world increases, many things that at one time seemed magical or the result of divine intervention are now considered to be "normal" - lightning, earthquakes, the weather, plagues, ...Gman wrote:Yes, Wayne but He doesn't make robots either.. He gives us choices.waynepii wrote:That is what I am having trouble understanding. God leaves it up to us to believe in Him or not.
Or is it that we are making it difficult? I don't think that we always have to "take-it-by-faith" in all things. He did give us intellect, and we should properly use it.waynepii wrote:He also gave us an intellect by which we can understand our world (this is apparently unique among species). But He makes it difficult for our intellect to discern His existence.
Consider Romans 1:20. "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"
Here we have a verse that says that when we look at creation, we understand them to be the works of God. Now granted we do have other ideas how this world came about, that maybe true, but do we understand that to be ultimate truth? I wouldn't think so..
Also is it just an intellectual thing to understand the things of God? Or is it something else?
To be honest, I find most of the "fulfilled prophesies" less than compelling. For instance, consider items 50 and 51 ...It kind of goes back to these articles again...waynepii wrote:We have a book (the Bible) written millenia ago which claims to be inspired by God, but was written, compiled, edited, translated, published, and interpreted by men. Said book "proves" its divine inspiration largely by prophecies of events that have undeniably occurred and miracles that were supposedly performed. But how can we be sure the "prophecies" were not written (or "tweaked" to fit) after the occurrence of the prophesied events and how can we be sure of what actually transpired that was interpreted as "miraculous"? After all, at one time, earthquakes, eclipses, and other perfectly normal events were considered "miracles".
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibletru.html
... which look promising, but examination of their context ...50 Zechariah 11:12 betrayed for thirty pieces of silver Matthew 26:14-15
51 Zechariah 11:13 betrayal money used to buy Potter's field Matthew 27:6-7
... and the betrayal and who was betrayed are less than obvious, to say the least. Further, while I am sure there is some interpretation of this that sorta' kinda' lines up with betrayal of Jesus, it certainly is not clear or readily discernible.Zechariah 11:4-14 wrote:4 This is what the LORD my God says: "Pasture the flock marked for slaughter. 5 Their buyers slaughter them and go unpunished. Those who sell them say, 'Praise the LORD, I am rich!' Their own shepherds do not spare them. 6 For I will no longer have pity on the people of the land," declares the LORD. "I will hand everyone over to his neighbor and his king. They will oppress the land, and I will not rescue them from their hands."
7 So I pastured the flock marked for slaughter, particularly the oppressed of the flock. Then I took two staffs and called one Favor and the other Union, and I pastured the flock. 8 In one month I got rid of the three shepherds.
The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them 9 and said, "I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another's flesh."
10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations. 11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word of the LORD.
12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.
13 And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"-the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter.
14 Then I broke my second staff called Union, breaking the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
Or item 71 ...
... in context ...71 Psalm 22:17-18 soldiers gambled for His clothing Matthew 27:35-36, John 19:23, 24
... it sounds more like the prayer of those doomed to death in a Roman style amphitheater (I know the time frame is wrong) than anything to do with Christ's crucifixion.Psalm 22 wrote:1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel.
4 In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:
8 "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.
10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.
19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.
22 I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.
23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.
25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you will I fulfill my vows.
26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.
29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn—
for he has done it.
Why are the prophesies dealing with a single pivotal event (the crucifixion) spread through many unrelated verses? This makes the prophesies seem to be the result of combing the available tracts for any statements that seem to fit the desired result.
These prophesies seem a bit like Nostradamus - ambiguous predictions which will eventually come close enough to something that actually happens that they are deemed "a prophesy".
Even if the Bible was 100% faithful to its earliest form (and I don't think it is), that fact neither indicates that it is an accurate telling of what actually occurred, nor does it prove divine inspiration of the document.
Possibly, IF we could be sure that Matthew 24 was written before 70AD. I'm sure you believe it to be a factual representation of some of Christ's teachings, but the evidence is far from conclusive.Well we know for a fact that the Old Testament was written before the New Testament. And yet we have all these prophecies of Christ that was fulfilled in the NT.
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/prophchr.html
We have a Prophecy of Christ saying that the temple would be destroyed Matthew 24:1-2. In 70 AD that was fulfilled when the Romans sacked the temple..
Scripture is pretty clear that it didn't come from man, although man may have penned it.
2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
What I would say is this. I don't think the Bible has every single answer for you and I. But it does provide a framework in which to build our faith on. It may have been inspired by God, but will still need to seek God for wisdom and direction..
Well something either existed for all time or came into existence out of nothing. The "something" might have been a few bazillion megatons of assorted matter or it might have been an all-powerful creature who could magically cause a few bazillion megatons to appear from nothing.Ok, and what logical points do they have? That man evolved by chance? I wouldn't hang my faith on this... I just wouldn't. Every man has some kind of faith. If it's not in God they simply channel it to something else. Like to yoga, mother nature, the stock market, or even baseball. We make Gods out of our occupation, people, or even things like cars.. What is wrong with making God as part of my faith?waynepii wrote:I was raised in a very religious family, went through Christian schools, and at one time was considering going into the clergy. But doubts began to seep in, largely because no one was able to give me compelling answers to relatively simple questions such as the above. I have been trolling both atheist and Christian websites looking for inspiration, and while I dislike the arrogance common on the atheist websites, they do make some very good and logical points.
Life could have happened by chance from natural causes or it occurred from nothing at all (ie God is living isn't He?) and was passed on.
As improbable as the former hypotheses may be, to me they seem MUCH more likely than the latter hypotheses.
My own doubts began when I realized that "God made us" begged the question "where did God come from". As yet, no one has been able to provide a cogent answer.
I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, I'm just trying to explain my doubts in hopes of resolving them one way or another.
Best lover I ever had. 