Evidence for God from Science

touchingcloth wrote:Is that related to religion?

I did say it was "slightly OT"! I did have a read through the forum guidelines, but I didn't see "absolutely no off-topic posts". If there's a ban on all OT posts, I apologise. (Maybe there's a more specific ruleset somewhere? If so, could you point me towards them? Thanks.)

touchingcloth wrote:Spare a thought for me

Is that something like a prayer, touchingcloth? Always.

ManOfScience wrote:This is something that's been bothering me lately. Why is it that religion is so unquestionable? You can question almost any other aspect of an individual/culture/ethnicity/etc. But, when it comes to religion, that is off limits. In America, at least, it's to the point that some people have been able to use their (claimed) religion to bypass state and federal laws! This is madness to me.

So it is okay then for the State and Federal law to bypass the Bill of Rights?

You can question Christianity. We,ll give you the reasons why and what we believe as well as the testimony of our lives. From this, you can freely accept or reject this and then be on your merry way.

Any religion can be hi-jacked form polical purposes and there are hypocrites in every religion. To be honest, you must account for postive change in people as well. If you want to question Islam - you could be killed. Not so with Chistianity...yet christians are attacked for our faith and are the real ones having someone else force convert them to your belief system.

What is the basis of your moral right to do so?

You are here to attack Chrisitanity alone and use other religions in your arguement as well. Don't be coy. Be honest and answer this question and stay on topic and from this we can go from here:

Why do you hate Christianity so much?
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B. W. wrote: Any religion can be hi-jacked form polical purposes and there are hypocrites in every religion. To be honest, you must account for postive change in people as well. If you want to question Islam - you could be killed. Not so with Chistianity

Tell that to those killed in the crusades...or during the inquisition...or the many, many people killed in witch hunts over the centuries.

I'm not saying that christianity is bad, but I dislike "totting up" the number of wars waged and people killed by different religions as if that somehow has a bearing on whether they are true or not.

I think what he means is not by following the tenets of Christianity.

In other words, if one follows Christ and Christianity as professed in the NT, they will not commit such atrocities. You can't say that for Islam.

There are muslims who would defend islam in the same way...

touchingcloth wrote:

B. W. wrote: Any religion can be hi-jacked form polical purposes and there are hypocrites in every religion. To be honest, you must account for postive change in people as well. If you want to question Islam - you could be killed. Not so with Chistianity

Tell that to those killed in the crusades...or during the inquisition...or the many, many people killed in witch hunts over the centuries.

I'm not saying that christianity is bad, but I dislike "totting up" the number of wars waged and people killed by different religions as if that somehow has a bearing on whether they are true or not.

Crusades = 1 milion. Most of the heavy lifting was done by the Muslims.
Inquisitions = a few hundred thousand. Political/religious theocracy acting against the Gospel.

Atheism in the 20th century= 110 million.

ageofknowledge wrote: Atheism in the 20th century= 110 million.

110 million what?

Gman wrote:

ManOfScience wrote:This is something that's been bothering me lately. Why is it that religion is so unquestionable? You can question almost any other aspect of an individual/culture/ethnicity/etc. But, when it comes to religion, that is off limits. In America, at least, it's to the point that some people have been able to use their (claimed) religion to bypass state and federal laws! This is madness to me.

What religion are you referring to? We are all religious animals that cannot help but think that something is divine. If you deny the authority of God, that He created all things, you haven't denied the concept of authority, you simply transfer it to something else like nature or mother nature, etc...

B. W. wrote:
Why do you hate Christianity so much?
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I asked that same question to another person the other day too and he couldn't give me an answer either. Apparently it must be an automatic response. Much like a computer that can only compute one answer. As soon as you mention God or a higher being than you, there is an automatic response that God is bad, or simply can't be believed in. You could give all the logic in the world and the answer is still the same. God could blow himself up into a mushroom cloud to express his love toward us and it still doesn't matter. There is only "one" response, and that is "no to God".

Forget thinking it through, forget whatever the reason is.. If God is included into the discussion, then automatically, without question, it is false.

So much for being open minded...

touchingcloth wrote: Tell that to those killed in the crusades...or during the inquisition...or the many, many people killed in witch hunts over the centuries.

I'm not saying that christianity is bad, but I dislike "totting up" the number of wars waged and people killed by different religions as if that somehow has a bearing on whether they are true or not.

TC,

You might want to read on the "just war theory." Not every war is justified according to God.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... sm9ylUlWGJ

I would add this article to the list as well as it takes care of the Crusades argument:


http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... vOri0iGSf8
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Gman wrote:I asked that same question to another person the other day too and he couldn't give me an answer either. Apparently it must be an automatic response. Much like a computer that can only compute one answer. As soon as you mention God or a higher being than you, there is an automatic response that God is bad, or simply can't be believed in. You could give all the logic in the world and the answer is still the same. God could blow himself up into a mushroom cloud to express his love toward us and it still doesn't matter. There is only "one" response, and that is "no to God".

Forget thinking it through, forget whatever the reason is.. If God is included into the discussion, then automatically, without question, it is false.

So much for being open minded...

Something else to consider, why do they think we are not smart. Every time I hear a scientist talk about Christians, they always proclaim we don't know science and that we are just not smart enough to understand. We are looked down upon because we believe in God? That is why so many scientists who do believe keep it a secret. Need any examples of them thinking we are stupid? Watch Expelled, by Ben Stien, or I could youtube it for you and see if there is a scene there (or you could just do it yourself )

ManOfScience wrote:I did say it was "slightly OT"! I did have a read through the forum guidelines, but I didn't see "absolutely no off-topic posts". If there's a ban on all OT posts, I apologise. (Maybe there's a more specific ruleset somewhere? If so, could you point me towards them? Thanks.)

Off topic? No, no one would do that.... so who here saw that game last week? LOL, don't worry, we all stray a little off topic from time to time, me espicially!

B. W. wrote:So it is okay then for the State and Federal law to bypass the Bill of Rights?

Not bypass, no, but there have to be limits on freedom of religion. Imagine a sect coming out and saying that they connect to God through child rape. There's a line somewhere, and this is obviously way past it. A good point at which to draw that line is, in my opinion, the line drawn by the usual laws of the country/state in which the religion is being practised.

B. W. wrote:What is the basis of your moral right to do so?

I'm not sure whether "you" meant me personally or whether it was more general, but, anyway, I have never tried to force my views on religion on to anyone else. I've stated facts and opinions, certainly, but that is not the same thing as forcing my beliefs. In my experience, religious people (in general) are far more likely to be forceful about pushing their views on to others (either nonbelievers or followers of a slightly different belief system).

B. W. wrote:Why do you hate Christianity so much?

First of all, as I said earlier in this thread, I was talking about all supernatural religion, not just Christianity. Anyway, to conclude that I "hate" religion from what I've asked and said in this thread is a bit of a leap! In fact, it's not true. I think religion is outdated and more than a little bit silly, but I certainly don't hate it (or the vast majority of its followers).

Gman wrote:Forget thinking it through, forget whatever the reason is.. If God is included into the discussion, then automatically, without question, it is false.

Good! Thinking it through. This is what everybody should do. I find that a lot of religious people are unwilling to do just that. (Why do I find myself constantly having to write little disclaimers? Disclaimer: This is a general statement and may not apply to you specifically.) They have their faith, and faith is unquestionable. I've even heard it said that to question your faith is a sin! (How can faith be strong unless it is questioned?) I know the reason for this: religious leaders are afraid of people questioning their faith for fear of losing their followers. Religious leaders are, very often (and perhaps more in Islam than Christianity), dictators, trying to keep "their people" in line.

Gabrielman wrote:Every time I hear a scientist talk about Christians, they always proclaim we don't know science...

I hear the opposite argument just as often: "Scientists are not in a position to comment on religion. Only men of religious learning are qualified to comment on the existence (or nonexistance) of God." What utter nonsense! There are, believe it or not, people who've dedicated their lives to looking for Nessie, or the Yeti. Would a religious leader be forbidden to comment on whether these mythical beasts really exist, having instead to ask the opinion of such an "expert"?

As for your original statement, of course there are Christians (and other religious people) capable of understanding the science of the universe. To claim that all Christians are incapable of understanding science is clearly ridiculous, and any scientist who really said that (do you have references?) would, I'm sure, be discredited within the scientific community.

touchingcloth wrote:Tell that to those killed in the crusades...or during the inquisition...or the many, many people killed in witch hunts over the centuries..

I'm disappointed, Touchingcloth, as you appear to be from my side of the ocean. Before you start the whole "crusade" debate and give throw away comments ad nauseum, I'd like you to do some research and come back and tell us why the "crusades" haapened; I want you to give us an alternative option for Christianity to have proceeded when under persecution for centuries first from the Persians and then from the rapidity of Muslim imperialism; then we can perhaps proceed to debate from an honest beginning about the merits or otherwise of the "crusades". Perhaps you'd like to start a new thread to save us hijacking this one?

touchingcloth wrote:I'm not saying that christianity is bad, but I dislike "totting up" the number of wars waged and people killed by different religions as if that somehow has a bearing on whether they are true or not.

Agreed. So why have you opted to do exactly this? "Many, many" people killed in the witch hunts... Would you like to clarify this rather noncommittal, bogus statement?

Dan