Evidence for God from Science

Runner wrote:B.W., I don't disagree with anything you say, but I get back to what the original poster said: “But faith can also be - and perhaps *must* be - applied to knowledge; faith must be applied to what we perceive.” I don't believe that very many people (or at least very many adults) become Christians on the basis of a completely blind faith that God exists, Christ is divine and the Bible is the word of God. As I suggested in my original post, I believe that most people apply their knowledge, experiences and intuition to conclude that Christianity is the best explanation for the universe in which we find ourselves. (This may be a conscious or subconscious process, but it is basically what people do in arriving at their religious beliefs.) They then make an informed “leap of faith” into Christianity.

In so doing, they choose to accept on faith the existence of God, the divinity of Christ and the Bible as the word of God. If their faith is strong (or grows to be strong), then as you say they have a “firm solid expectation” in all of these things. But a “firm solid expectation” is different from “certainty” or “absolute” belief. I may be quite a devout Christian, but if I'm honest I don't think I can say that my “firm solid expectation” in the truth of Christianity rises to the same level of faith as my “near certainty” that my wife will be waiting for me at home tonight.

My two points were that:

(1) I believe that faith is inevitably tied to one's knowledge, experiences and intuition; it's impossible to have faith in “things unseen” that are contrary to one's knowledge, experience and intuition (or to maintain one's sanity if one tries to do so).

(2) I believe that how one lives one's life defines what one's faith actually is. I can say that I have “faith in Christ” -- but if there is zero evidence of this in my life, my supposed faith has no reality. I am simply lying to others and perhaps to myself.

Let me try to help a bit regarding your two points. Yes, it is impossible to have faith in “things unseen” that are contrary to one's knowledge, experience and intuition but it is also not impossible either.

How can this be?

First off, God does not remain silent as Job 33:14, 15, 16, 17, 18 points out: “For God may speak in one way, or in another, Yet man does not perceive it. 15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, When deep sleep falls upon men, While slumbering on their beds, 16 Then He opens the ears of men, And seals their instruction. 17 In order to turn man from his deed, And conceal pride from man, 18 He keeps back his soul from the Pit, And his life from perishing by the sword.” NKJV - Job 33:14-18

Paul also writes of this in Romans 1:19, 20, “…because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse…” NKJV

God in many diverse ways speaks to humanity but as Paul points out in Romans 1:21-22, people reject the knowledge of God and choose what is contrary to one's knowledge, experience, and intuition that God indeed exists speaking to us in many diverse ways. Therefore, human faith is firmly fixed upon other things and not on God and thus the truth about God is suppressed.

Notice that this suppression of truth comes by such crossover into justifying our own unrighteousness as Romans 1:18 states: “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness…” NKJV

Yes, human beings do need knowledge, experience, and intuition to come into an understanding about God and his will. This comes through an empirical Book, the bible, which I am quoting. From it — knowledge springs forth engaging intuition and even can relate to our own experiences (Anyone doubt this — keep reading).

Romans 1:16, 17, “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

It is the gospel account written in a solid empirical book. It is there one gains knowledge and how God opens the ears to receive the truth so that our intuition begins to perceive the things of God that are unseen. Then from there our living experiences with the Lord teach and expand our faith to be firmly fixed upon the Lord through daily progression.

In other words — God awakens us. How?

Romans 10:17, “So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” NKJV

Yes, it's impossible for us to have faith in “things unseen” that are contrary to one's knowledge, experience and intuition. But with God all things are possible as Jesus said:

Matthew 19:25, 26, “When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?" 26 But Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." ESV

God — opens our ears so we can understand and turn back toward him and be healed. This opening of our ears has one result — it divides. It divides one who hears from those who refuse to hear. What we place our faith in is challenged and calls for us to make a choice.

Numbers 11:23, “And (Yahweh) the LORD said to Moses, "Is (Yahweh's) the LORD's hand shortened? Now you shall see whether my word will come true for you or not." ESV with the Lord's name added in for emphasis.

Those whose Faith is founded upon the Lord, as revealed from the Word of God empirically written in the bible convey by messengers and also omnipersonal diverse ways God uses to awaken us out of slumber — learn to live by faith.

Romans 10:17, “So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” NKJV

Romans 1:16, 17, “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes (Faith-ing), for the Jew first and also for the Greek.17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

So that it is now possible to have faith in “things unseen” that are contrary to one's knowledge, experience and intuition because… our faith is being taught what Job concluded long ago…

"I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted,” Job 42:2, ESV

Therefore your second point has validity:

2) I believe that how one lives one's life defines what one's faith actually is. I can say that I have “faith in Christ” -- but if there is zero evidence of this in my life, my supposed faith has no reality. I am simply lying to others and perhaps to myself.

Such involves learning that God can do all things and no purpose of his can be thwarted which comes by knowing / experiencing, this in many a diverse ways within our lives. Our Faith, lack for a better word, evolves, in the unseen things of God that He will direct us through and guide us home. As Hebrews 11 testifies…

Heb 11:1, 2, 3, 6, “Trusting is being confident of what we hope for, convinced about things we do not see. 2 It was for this that Scripture attested the merit of the people of old 3 By trusting, we understand that the universe was created through a spoken word of God, so that what is seen did not come into being out of existing phenomena.

“6 And without trusting, it is impossible to be well pleasing to God, because whoever approaches him must trust that he does exist and that he becomes a Rewarder to those who seek him out.” CJB (Complete Jewish Bible)

Our faith is in the unseen God — the Lord of Glory who awakens us to our greatest need — Himself…

That involves a daily walk of faith. Some days is grows great, other days it flickers, almost going out, other times it is chastened, but thru it all it increases in illumination (Matthew 5:14, 15, 16) — all by the unseen hand of God (John 14:16-17).

So that it is now possible to have faith in “things unseen” that are contrary to one's knowledge, experience and intuition because… our faith is being taught what Job concluded long ago…

"I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted,” Job 42:2, ESV

So you can become a devout Christian with the certain “firm solid expectation” in the truth of Christ raising your level of faith far above your “near certainty” that your spouse will be waiting for you at home…or the grocer will have food stocked on the shelves…etc and etc…
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B.W., I sincerely appreciate your efforts, but I must confess that I'm not quite following your train of thought. I don't disagree that the existence of God is apparent throughout creation, or that God may speak to people through the Bible, in dreams and visions, and in other ways. But this just underscores my point. What one observes about the universe, or reads in the Bible, or experiences in dreams and visions, are part of one's knowledge and experience. They are part of what lead people to faith. When some of us observe the universe, read the Bible, or experience seemingly real dreams or visions, the existence of an unseen God seems convincing (or at least plausible). If we choose to believe in an unseen God, we aren't putting our faith in something that is contrary to our knowledge, experience and intuition, but rather something that is consistent with our knowledge, experience and intuition.

Other people view the same universe and don't see the hand of a creator, or perhaps read the Bible and dismiss it as just another ancient book, or perhaps experience dreams and visions and dismiss them as meaningless. For whatever reason, these peoples' knowledge, experience and intuition don't lead them to faith in an unseen God. We who see the hand of God might say that the people who don't see this are putting their faith in something else and that this is contrary to their knowledge and experience because the hand and voice of God are apparent everywhere. In fact, I actually do say this -- I'm constantly befuddled by people who seemingly have no spiritual awareness or even curiosity about spiritual matters, despite what I see as fairly compelling evidence for the existence of a creator. But even I wouldn't say that the evidence for a creator necessarily compels faith in the Christian God. Faith in the Christian God requires a further leap of faith. I agree with you that once someone makes a leap of faith into Christianity by accepting the gift of salvation through Jesus, one's spiritual eyes and ears are opened and one may evolve to a faith that approaches near-certainty. I personally wouldn't say it's a level of certainty that far exceeds my faith that my wife will be waiting for me at home tonight, but I'm not going to quibble if you feel this way.

I'm not quite following your point about the Bible being a “solid empirical book.” I agree that God speaks through the Bible, but obviously many people read it and don't hear the voice of God. It seems to me that the Bible can help push a non-Christian toward the Christian faith, but only (I believe) if it has the ring of truth to the person in light of the person's knowledge, experience and intuition. I really can't imagine someone who wasn't “ripe” for the Bible reading it and saying, “This is such a compelling empirical book that I'm going to place my faith in the Christian God on the basis of this alone.” Once someone accepts Christ, of course, then the Bible takes on an entirely different level of importance.

Perhaps someone else who can see where (or if) I'm missing your point will want to weigh in. Or perhaps the differences in what we're saying are merely symantic ones.

I'm not quite following your point about the Bible being a “solid empirical book.” I agree that God speaks through the Bible, but obviously many people read it and don't hear the voice of God. It seems to me that the Bible can help push a non-Christian toward the Christian faith, but only (I believe) if it has the ring of truth to the person in light of the person's knowledge, experience and intuition. I really can't imagine someone who wasn't “ripe” for the Bible reading it and saying, “This is such a compelling empirical book that I'm going to place my faith in the Christian God on the basis of this alone.” Once someone accepts Christ, of course, then the Bible takes on an entirely different level of importance.

Not to answer for BW but I would add,
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. "(John 6:44)
No one. Unless the Father is drawing a person, then yes, the bible is nothing more than ink on paper. Coming to Christ is a matter of response. As BW pointed out, God has pointed it out to all men in diverse ways. One can respond affirmatively or negatively. I can recall many points in my life where I have done both, and both have affected my walk with the Lord.

knowledge, experience and intuition

So, it does and doesn't matter how much intuition, experience and knowledge one has. People act counter to this all the time. That is why we have jails that are busting at the seems. The criminal doens't have less intuition that there actions are illegal. They just don't care, or they obey certain impulses over others. Greed over generousity. Malice over kindness. etc.
I've met many a person in my day that know there is a God, but don't care. I've even talked to people who know there is a hell and believe they are going there, and simply don't care.

"For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness."
2 Thess 2: 11-12

"And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper" Romans 1:28
That is the product of a response. Not a matter of whether the bible rings of truth to them. Because they like their self-soverignty more than the truth, they respond by rejecting the truth.

That is why you have a never ending debate over the same things again and again. How many times will someone on this board have to answer an atheist who says God endorses genocide? How can a person with no interest in the bible find certain objections and never find the truth within? Because in many cases they have already decided, and so God has endulged them and let them go their own way.

jlay, you make the point that “it does and doesn't matter how much intuition, experience and knowledge one has” because there is the added element that God must be drawing the person to Him. I wouldn't disagree with this. I wasn't suggesting that faith is some sort of mathematical equation: knowledge + experience + intuition = faith. My suggestion was more in the vein that we inevitably make our leap of faith in the direction to which our knowledge, experience and intuition point. There may indeed be the added element that God must be drawing the person to Him at the point at which the leap is made.

Certainly there are people whose knowledge, experience and intuition point them in the direction of Christianity but who choose not to make the leap of faith for selfish reasons. I work in the criminal justice system and am very familiar with what you describe. By the same token, the jails and prisons are some of the most fertile ground for people to respond to Christianity, precisely because the inmates have been reduced to a state where their knowledge, experience and especially their intuition make them very ripe to hear God's call. Perhaps God has “given them over to their depraved minds” for a time to bring them to this state; I have a difficult time believing that God would permanently give anyone over to his depraved mind, because this seems fundamentally at odds with Christ's message and mission.

When you say (or quote BW as saying), “Think of your faith as a reality,” I think there are two ways of looking at this. One underscores my point that our faith is defined by how we live our lives. How we live our lives is our reality. So yes, our faith in the Christian message must be very real to us, or we won't live our lives in accordance with it. By the same token, I never lose sight of the fact that my faith is not reality. It's faith in things I can't be certain about. If I start confusing my faith with reality, I risk becoming the sort of arrogant, intolerant and brittle character that many people unfortunately think of when they hear the word “Christian”: “My faith is a reality; your faith is a pathetic delusion.” I have great respect for Christian leaders who freely admit that, in some corner of their minds, they wonder whether their beliefs have any validity at all — yet they plow ahead, as though their beliefs were true. To me, these are the ones who really understand what it means to “have faith."

A Point to consider

John 14:6, “Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” ESV

When Jesus spoke these words listen again to what He is saying: No one comes to the Father except through Jesus. What does this mean? The Greek words translated way, truth , and life help uncover what Jesus means. These words the following meanings:

Way (hod ós): path, road, often used to denote the way of entrance into the inner sanctuary (AMG Word Studies)

Truth (alḗtheia): Factual manifested reality…Truth refers to what is true in itself; Purity from all error and falsehood…

Life (Zoe): the absolute fullness of life, both essential and ethical, life real and genuine, a life active and vigorous, devoted to God (defined by Thayer). Zoe life describes how one finds meaning and purpose of life without end by living active, vigorously devoted to God in an ethical essential manner.

Listen to what Jesus is saying: Jesus is the only road, the only way of entrance into the inner sanctuary where the Father is. He is the only way to become free from all error and falsehood so you can enter the sanctuary. By Him comes the fullness of life that has meaning and purpose without end.

This is all brought out in light of the context from the last phrase in John 14:6 - No one comes to the Father except through me.

That is quite a claim, isn't it? No wonder people crucified Jesus making such remarks as how insensitive He was to other faiths! (Note - John 15:18, 20)

Now learn — Faith divides - How? Jesus confronts people and creates a choice before people where people must choose what path their faith will take. Those that hear are those foreknown that would hear and obey and are thus eklegomai (Grk): meaning - picked out from amongst a crowd i.e. chosen (John 15:19 and see Romans 8:29, 30).

That is how the Father draws a person out from the crowd and then refines and develops their faith (through process) to be founded in Him and not in the ways of the world. During their journey, they can now have fellowship in the inner sanctuary of God, with God, because they have been found free from all error and falsehood by Christ's work. For such people, they find fullness of life that has meaning and purpose without end despite hardships, enduring all trials / toils — because they live in that inner sanctuary…

But such a Call as this (Romans 8:30) divides either causing one's faith to remain in the world or affixed to God thru Christ who tore down the Veil of the Inner Sanctuary so one can have life by being set free from error and all falsehood!

So do we Christians come across to the world as arrogant and intolerant for stating what Jesus proclaimed in John 14:6?

John 15:18-21, "If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.”

“20 Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me...” NKJV

Those mentioned in Hebrews 11 set an example of faith for us to follow - our faith must have ears to hear and our feet shod (prepared) to obey... (Ephesians 6:15)
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