Evidence for God from Science

I believe a rapture will occur. It seems completely out of God's character to subject His children to the evils of the Great Tribulation. I would have to cite different Bible stories in which the righteous were spared from horrible brutality and cruelty, i.e. Daniel in the Lion's Den, The Story of "Four in the Fire". And so on....

I'd like to believe that as well, however, 11 of the 12 apostles were martyred (only John died a natural death). Further the early church was marked by martyrdom and there are many passages where Jesus warned his followers that they would be persecuted and some of them die.

That doesn't mean that the Tribulation or the pouring out of the wrath of God are the same thing. It does however, refute the idea that followers of Christ are exempt from temporal suffering.

to answer the question: No, forums cant believe in things. They are just places to discuss and debate. People however...maybe. well not me i dont, unless it involves abduction by aliens(rapture is abduction by god lol)

The Rapture is going to happen. (1Thes 4:16,17)

The question is "When?"

The Pre-tribulation believers say that the Rapture will happen before the 70th week of Daniel starts. They believe that the 70th week is God's wrath on the ungodly. They believe that the church (believers in Jesus Christ) is not appointed to suffer the wrath of God (1Thes 1:10, 5:9) therefore the believers will be harpazo'd (raptured) before the 70th week begins. However the Pre-trib believers teach that many unbelievers will come to faith in Jesus during the 70th week.

A couple of questions: If God's wrath (judgment) begins at the start of the 70th week, then why do the martyrs under the altar in heaven (Rev 6:10) ask the Lord how long will He refrain from judging and avenging their blood on those who dwell on the earth? If believers are not to suffer the wrath of God, then what happens to those who receive Jesus as their Savior after the 70th week begins?

I believe that the Pre-wrath Rapture view is more believable. All believers in Jesus will be harpazo'd just before Jesus pours out the wrath of God on the ungodly during the 70th week. This leaves only the ungodly who did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved (2Thes 2:10,11,12) on the earth to be judged by Jesus when He pours the wrath (judgment) on them. Once the judgment begins, no one will be saved. Think Noah and Lot.

When does the Rapture happen in the Pre-wrath view? I think shortly after the Abomination of Desolation occurs and the great tribulation is cut short (Matt 24:15-21).
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I don’t believe in a “Rapture” per se because it is not even in the Bible. “Jot or tittle” comes to mind and I don’t want to be guilty of either. If you insist on having a rapture I’ll give you one if you want our meeting Him in the air to be it. Even so, I do not believe it will be a second, stand alone event. Nor does the Bible ever address a “Third Coming” to my knowledge. Any Rapture will merely be a part of a larger event – His Second Coming.
Many times you see someone write that believers won’t be subject to wrath. Jesus told us we’d be persecuted by men who hate us just as He was hated. If He has to cut the Great Tribulation short to save the elect then we will be subject to wrath. History tells us all the disciples but one suffered death at the hands of men. They were the closest human beings to Jesus Christ and we think we deserve better that they? If we love Him we will be prepared to die for him and join other souls under that altar.
If the popular belief of a Rapture was true, I don’t see how man can be of the opinion it would be Pre-tribulation if they have studied Matthew 24 which spells out the end time process. Those words in my Bible are red indicating Jesus spoke those words. I Thessalonians on the other hand was penned by Paul (as uttered by God). CAUTION - I am not pitting Paul against our Savior or asking anyone “which they believe.” We must believe both; however, we need to better understand what Paul’s intentions were. Recall, Peter wrote that Paul’s writings were at times “hard to understand.” On that note when you hear someone say, “absent from the body – present with the Lord,” they’re misquoting scripture. Paul actually said that he would RATHER be absent from the body and present with the Lord (KJV). I think we quickly believe on the side of most arguments that which makes us feel more secure.

Pain first, then birth, in that order.

carpentersson wrote:Pain first, then birth, in that order.

Welcome to the forum, car pentersson. Is your name Swedish? I once knew a Lars Pentersson from Stockholm.

RickD wrote:

carpentersson wrote:Pain first, then birth, in that order.

Welcome to the forum, car pentersson. Is your name Swedish? I once knew a Lars Pentersson from Stockholm.

Rick, I think he's a carpenter's son!

DannyM wrote:

RickD wrote:

carpentersson wrote:Pain first, then birth, in that order.

Welcome to the forum, car pentersson. Is your name Swedish? I once knew a Lars Pentersson from Stockholm.

Rick, I think he's a carpenter's son!

His name is car pentersson, and he's a carpenter's son? That's too much of a coincidence, Danny.

I'm not so hot on the rapture.. Most believers in the Bible went through many calamities in their life.. I think we will feel the brunt of satan's wrath but not God's wrath.

Also, much of the testing will happen on how we handle Israel..

Gman wrote:I'm not so hot on the rapture.. Most believers in the Bible went through many calamities in their life.. I think we will feel the brunt of satan's wrath but not God's wrath.

Also, much of the testing will happen on how we handle Israel..

Correct. This irrational hatred of Jews and the "born again" Christians is a flag of identification for Satan and his people.
If we fail as a nation to support Israel as we have in the past our country is cursed and will fall, but I hope and pray not.
If we're right about the time of rapture, we must be prepared as best we can with faith in God's help to endure and glorify Christ during the coming time of tribulations.
If we're wrong, no worries, we'll be raptured and miss all the calamities and testing.
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst.

Gman wrote:I'm not so hot on the rapture.. Most believers in the Bible went through many calamities in their life.. I think we will feel the brunt of satan's wrath but not God's wrath.

Also, much of the testing will happen on how we handle Israel..

I agree, Gman. I think the "Left Behind" series, opens many Christians up to a rude awakening. I'm not discounting the rapture, just discounting a rapture of the saints before satan's wrath. I just think that saying we will be taken up, to keep us from tribulation, isn't biblical. Christians face tribulation every day. The freedom we have in the western world, keeps us relatively safe from that, for now...

Gman and RickD You guys are thinkers.

The big question for me that evolves from this one is: What then can we do to prepare for the time of tribulation?
I would be interested to see the response from the other thinkers in the forum, but I don't know how to start such a question.

What then can we do to prepare for the time of tribulation?

You would need to prepare yourself spiritually becasue there will be many times when your faith is going to be tested, because we wont accept the mark of the beast we will be persecuted and killed and we must be ready for that eventuallity . Also Biblical knowlage as the beast will contradict the Bible he will mix truth with lies and claim to be God, we need to be able to see through it. He will also be the lawless one and will get his followers to break all Gods commandments. Imo

Daniel

I agree Daniel. That's why I don't waste money on hair implants or any cosmetic surgery since my head is likely to be removed soon anyway.
But, besides being prepared spiritually and praying for guidance and help, I can't think of any normal disaster preparedness that might protect any person from this kind of persecution.
If Osama Bin Laden can't hide forever even though he is loved and admired by millions, where will I hide during such a persecution as described in the bible?
Surely, it's wise to be prepared for possible natural disasters and good to be well informed and mobile to avoid civil strife and various conflicts, but I don't know if efforts like having a cache of supplies in a hidden bunker in the hills will do anybody any good in those times. I've read so many related scriptures and articles by informed Christians but still I wonder.
But this I will pray, that if any people might be blessed to endure to the end by prayers and with wisdom or correct behaviors and God's will to bring glory to His name, then let me and my family be among those, but nevertheless, His will be done.