Evidence for God from Science

ageofknowledge wrote:You are not a member of an evangelical church though are you? I thought you were Eastern Orthodox. I am differentiating between the megachurch evangelical Christian communities and more cloistered communities which have certain ethnic and language makeups, ritualisms, and unique beliefs that tend to produce relationship longevity for those that remain.

You'll possibly say no, of course, since you disagree with almost everything I say (lolol); however, communities that are bound together by these "glues" often have much lengthier relationships between members that remain in them in my observations.

Distinctive ethnic, language, ritual, beliefs, etc... factors make for tighter communities. Interestingly, this certainly isn't always desirable. For example, if I asked the same question of Mormons I would get very different responses than evangelicals. Their unique belief system, though heretically false, binds their members together in ways evangelicalism simply doesn't. Same with Jehovah Witnesses. Same with Seventh Day Adventists, though despite their false prophetess (e.g. Ellen White) are classified as evangelical. Of course, the unique factors that define SDA are the reasons for their relationship longevity.

I am most definitely not Eastern Orthodox. I am completely evangelical and a member of an evangelical church . . . always have been, and I suspect I always will be.

Jac3510 wrote:

ageofknowledge wrote:You are not a member of an evangelical church though are you? I thought you were Eastern Orthodox. I am differentiating between the megachurch evangelical Christian communities and more cloistered communities which have certain ethnic and language makeups, ritualisms, and unique beliefs that tend to produce relationship longevity for those that remain.

You'll possibly say no, of course, since you disagree with almost everything I say (lolol); however, communities that are bound together by these "glues" often have much lengthier relationships between members that remain in them in my observations.

Distinctive ethnic, language, ritual, beliefs, etc... factors make for tighter communities. Interestingly, this certainly isn't always desirable. For example, if I asked the same question of Mormons I would get very different responses than evangelicals. Their unique belief system, though heretically false, binds their members together in ways evangelicalism simply doesn't. Same with Jehovah Witnesses. Same with Seventh Day Adventists, though despite their false prophetess (e.g. Ellen White) are classified as evangelical. Of course, the unique factors that define SDA are the reasons for their relationship longevity.

I am most definitely not Eastern Orthodox. I am completely evangelical and a member of an evangelical church . . . always have been, and I suspect I always will be.

Oh, that's right. I must have had a senior moment. I though Byblos was responding. My bad.

Well it was a good opportunity for me to point out a few more observations anyways.

Byblos wrote:Good to see you back FL, how have you been?

Well...Thank you! I've been dealing with some crud in life but my God has blessed me richly - $$$ - throughout. Money is nice, like a shiny new tool you've just acquired, but it demands to be used wisely, in a godly manner. Or admired, in a devilish manner. (I'm sort of half-way in-between. Aren't trials fun?!)

Silvertusk wrote:"Social Religion" Thats a term that sums it up nicely. I am not very good at social religion either.

Silvertusk

It's good to see that I'm not alone!

FL

I have a few friends I maintain in prior churches but they are mostly by facebook.

While there's something to be said about the transcience of society, maybe it says something about the way institutional churches function. Fellowship is primarily in the halls, before and after a service and we spend most of our time passively in a pew, facing the front watching others perform while we fellowship with the back of the person's neck in front of us.

Just saying ....

Canuckster1127 wrote:I have a few friends I maintain in prior churches but they are mostly by facebook.

While there's something to be said about the transcience of society, maybe it says something about the way institutional churches function. Fellowship is primarily in the halls, before and after a service and we spend most of our time passively in a pew, facing the front watching others perform while we fellowship with the back of the person's neck in front of us.

Just saying ....

Absolutely a good point. Churches try to compensate for that with small group fellowships but they are transient and short term too. Some store front type churches will put people at tables and have portions of the service where each table works through a series of questions related to the sermon. This is an interesting approach but store front churches are by their nature transitory... lol. Everything is so transitory. Life is transitory death is certain.

ageofknowledge wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:I have a few friends I maintain in prior churches but they are mostly by facebook.

While there's something to be said about the transcience of society, maybe it says something about the way institutional churches function. Fellowship is primarily in the halls, before and after a service and we spend most of our time passively in a pew, facing the front watching others perform while we fellowship with the back of the person's neck in front of us.

Just saying ....

Absolutely a good point. Churches try to compensate for that with small group fellowships but they are transient and short term too. Some store front type churches will put people at tables and have portions of the service where each table works through a series of questions related to the sermon. This is an interesting approach but store front churches are by their nature transitory... lol. Everything is so transitory. Life is transitory death is certain.

Yes, I see that. Perhaps though, we're missing something important and it would be worth examining how the church functioned and relationships factored into body life before the traditions, forms and organizational dynamics entered into what we call church today. I don't think deep intimate relationships are optional. I think there are tied into the warp and woof of what God desires personally with us, and what he wishes to see reflected within His body and bride, the true church. If what we call church isn't reflecting that today, then I think the call to us is to change some things and not accept fatalistically a norm that falls short of God's desire for His children.

Canuckster1127 wrote:I have a few friends I maintain in prior churches but they are mostly by facebook.

While there's something to be said about the transcience of society, maybe it says something about the way institutional churches function. Fellowship is primarily in the halls, before and after a service and we spend most of our time passively in a pew, facing the front watching others perform while we fellowship with the back of the person's neck in front of us.

Just saying ....

Have you read Pagan Christianity? Forgive me, I haven't taken the time to go through the Amazon reviews and see if you've commented on it yet.

The reason I ask is that it largely confirmed something I've been edging toward for some years now, namely, that "the church" was never supposed to be "a place" where people came to sing a song and listen to a thirty minute homily. Even first century Judaism wasn't like that. While there were rabbis in the local synagogues, and while there may have been something like a modern sermon, much of the "worship service" was discussion based.

I guess what I am saying is that I'm seeing less and less biblical warrant for the monologue we call a sermon on Sunday mornings. If people really think a thirty minute pep-talk once a week is going to help them become genuine disciples of Christ, then perhaps we have found the root of the decline of Christianity in both our country and in our individual lives. Needless to say, that also goes a long way in explaining the problem Age is pointing out.

In the "for what it's worth" column, the close friendships I have that have come out of a church environment have been very much more discussion oriented churches. We also eat together on a very regular basis (before/after every service, actually). It's just something I fell into, but it definitely isn't the way I grew up . . .

Jac3510 wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:I have a few friends I maintain in prior churches but they are mostly by facebook.

While there's something to be said about the transcience of society, maybe it says something about the way institutional churches function. Fellowship is primarily in the halls, before and after a service and we spend most of our time passively in a pew, facing the front watching others perform while we fellowship with the back of the person's neck in front of us.

Just saying ....

Have you read Pagan Christianity? Forgive me, I haven't taken the time to go through the Amazon reviews and see if you've commented on it yet.

The reason I ask is that it largely confirmed something I've been edging toward for some years now, namely, that "the church" was never supposed to be "a place" where people came to sing a song and listen to a thirty minute homily. Even first century Judaism wasn't like that. While there were rabbis in the local synagogues, and while there may have been something like a modern sermon, much of the "worship service" was discussion based.

I guess what I am saying is that I'm seeing less and less biblical warrant for the monologue we call a sermon on Sunday mornings. If people really think a thirty minute pep-talk once a week is going to help them become genuine disciples of Christ, then perhaps we have found the root of the decline of Christianity in both our country and in our individual lives. Needless to say, that also goes a long way in explaining the problem Age is pointing out.

In the "for what it's worth" column, the close friendships I have that have come out of a church environment have been very much more discussion oriented churches. We also eat together on a very regular basis (before/after every service, actually). It's just something I fell into, but it definitely isn't the way I grew up . . .

Jac,

I've read Pagan Christianity by Barna and Viola and I've also read the follow-up works by Viola, Reinventing Church, From Eternity to Here and Finding Organic Church. It's resonated hugely with me and I've put reviews of them up on Amazon. So much so, that it's confirmed my decision to leave formal ministry and the institutional church and I'm currently involved in the very early stages of an organic church in my area. We're bringing Viola here to DC in July to do a weekend seminar and training as a cooperative effort of some established organic groups and interested people who are looking for a deeper and more personal expression of body life than what most institutional churches appear willing to explore.

Be careful my friend. It's not for the weak of heart and it is a more difficult path to walk and it may marginalize much of what you've been training for!

We can start a thread and discuss some of this if you and others are interested.

blessings,

bart

Please do start a thread, sir! I'd be interested in your experiences and insights so far (and ongoing, of course). Funny story about how this doesn't match up with what I'm training for (formal seminary and all):

I took an ecclesiology course my last semester of my undergrad some time ago. I had all A's, no big deal. The final exam was basically one question: describe the biblical model of the church. I just decided to go for it. You should know that the school I attended was very baptistic in their thinking, and even by then, my view was very NOT baptistic (I'm not a congregationalist, believe in a plurality of elders, am not a fan of "the sermon", believe in family based discipleship, etc.). Bottom line: overnight, my grade for the entire course dropped from a 98 to the low 80s.

I wonder what my prof thought of my little essay . . .

In any case, I have found it much harder, but also much, MUCH more rewarding. So I'm very interesting in your comments.

I started a Thread in the Christian Theology section, titled Pagan Christianity. Hopefully we can have a good conversation without sending too many others into convulsions ...

Be careful you don't read in what isn't there. For example, the New Testament was not influenced by ancient pagan mystery religions or even pagan thought as modern neo-pagans and ani-christ liberal professors like to falsely assert. Be sure to read Nash's 'The Gospel and the Greeks' paying special attention to his excellent references.